Two Thumbs Down on Zero Dark Thirty Torture at Fordham Law Panel
|Ali Soufan and Karen Greenberg, director of the Center on National Security at Fordham School of Law
Photo by Dan Creighton
Waterboarding did not lead to the killing of Osama Bin laden, and anyone who believes that after watching the movie Zero Dark Thirty
has been misled, a panel said on Jan. 24.
“The Zero Dark Thirty Controversy: Torture, Art, and Politics,” a discussion held in a capacity McNally Amphitheatre, was presented by the Center on National Security at Fordham School of Law.
Ali Soufan, a former FBI special agent who investigated and supervised highly sensitive and complex international terrorism cases, including those related to 9/11, admitted that he enjoyed watching Zero Dark Thirty
, particularly the last 30 minutes.
But he chafed at the notion that it is “based on first-hand accounts of actual events,” as it states in the opening of the film.
He took umbrage that a composite character in the movie named Ammar identifies Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti as bin Laden’s personal courier after being waterboarded, thus setting in motion the events leading to bin Laden’s discovery.
“The ‘composite character’ is actually a real person. This guy is Ammar al-Baluchi; he is currently in Guantanamo Bay. They say he’s a nephew of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (who masterminded of the 9/11 attacks). He’s a real person,” Soufan said.
Soufan said Ammar al-Baluchi has never been waterboarded, and that Hassan Ghu, the real al-Qaeda operative who revealed al-Kuwaiti’s identity in 2005 did so without the aid of “enhanced interrogation methods”.
Therefore, movie director Kathryn Bigelow and screenwriter Mark Boal only told half the story, he said.
“The sacrifices of people who worked in other government agencies to get to the level where we were able to identify Osama bin Laden, al-Kuwaiti, and the network, were totally eliminated from the story. Those are the real heroes of how we get to Osama bin Laden,” he said.
Jane Mayer, staff writer for the New Yorker
and the author of The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How the War on Terror Turned Into a War on American Ideals
(Doubleday, 2008) lamented that the larger context of the fight against terrorism had been left out of Bigelow’s movie, noting that plenty of employees in the FBI and the CIA resisted the temptation to break the law and resort to torture.
“There were many people whose conscience was stricken during this period, and [who] said ‘That’s beneath us. Not me, not now, not ever are we going to be doing that.’”
“The reason we have the rule of law in this country is not because we’re wimps; it’s because when you actually have laws and trials and a scientific approach to solving these issues rather than just hitting people over the head and dump[ing] buckets of water on them, you get the right results. “
Alex Gibney, whose 2007 film Taxi to the Dark Side
won an Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature, said he understood why the filmmakers chose to embrace the notion that when it came to avenging 9/11, no technique would be left off the table.
“It’s obviously not tough to torture someone, beat someone, or waterboard someone who’s utterly helpless and chained before you,” he said.
“Yet somehow, through the power of imagery, it feels tough, and it feels smart, because it feels like revenge. It feels like, ‘Yeah, we’re kicking ass.’ And yet, we’re not. We’re kicking ourselves.
“That’s why I think there’s a value in discussing films like Zero Dark Thirty
, because the power of images is so strong in terms of stirring our emotions.”
Soufan hammered home the point that torture does not work: Even after Khalid Shaikh Mohammad was waterboarded 183 times, he continued to insist that Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti was no one of significance.
“One of the best interrogations in the war on terror happened immediately after 9/11, when Osama bin Laden’s personal bodyguard identified the hijackers as al-Qaida operatives and gave us significant information that was instrumental for planning the war in Afghanistan,” he said.
“I did that interrogation with my partner. Maybe you’ll be shocked, but for the most important interrogation in the war on terror, we read the Miranda rights every time.”
|Ali Soufan, Karen Greenberg, Jane Mayer and Alex Gibney
Photo by Dan Creighton
Founded in 1841, Fordham is the Jesuit University of New York, offering exceptional education distinguished by the Jesuit tradition to more than 15,100 students in its four undergraduate colleges and its six graduate and professional schools. It has residential campuses in the Bronx and Manhattan, a campus in West Harrison, N.Y., the Louis Calder Center Biological Field Station in Armonk, N.Y., and the London Centre at Heythrop College, University of London, in the United Kingdom.