Episode 2 - AI & Art

00:00:16:21 - 00:00:39:22
Jie Ren
Hi everyone, this is Professor Jie Ren. Welcome to my podcast When Tech Meets Ed. Today I'm very happy to invite my art teacher in Florence. French artist Tommy Boureaux, who is based in Paris and Florence, to join me for this interesting topic of art and AI. Especially with AI challenging how art is created and perceived. I love to hear opinions from an artist.

00:00:40:00 - 00:01:02:03
Jie Ren
So Tommy, thank you so much for being on this podcast. Tell us. Yeah, tell us about you. So, I know that you have art exhibitions in France, Italy, the UK, the US and your art explores human forms in an abstract way. So how did you start your journey?

00:01:02:05 - 00:01:27:14
Tommy Boureaux
It's very complicated because at the beginning, I wasn't a painter. Started to study graphic design, and you switch on in Paris at the beginning. So, basically, when I started, my idea was to work most commercial drawing and painting stuff like this. But then when I started to looking for a job in France, a lot, lot of people let me know down.

00:01:27:14 - 00:01:48:08
Tommy Boureaux
Maybe there are too much personal, too much creative, too much trance. They asked me maybe to do an exhibition, to buy some drawing, but never to do like a commercial work. So I started to think about maybe, illustration is not my way. And I start to think about paintings, so I start more or less, you know, self-taught to paint alone.

00:01:48:10 - 00:02:07:20
Tommy Boureaux
And then I start to do exhibition like that without thinking that much. So at the beginning I was more figurative research and drawing, and I don't know why. Step by step, everything start to develop to raw, and now I'm doing like big painting. In oil painting, I'm teaching hard, so everything changes. Basically, the last year.

00:02:07:22 - 00:02:34:01
Jie Ren
So I look at your paintings, they are amazing. Especially they are exploring like, you know, like the inner self and then, you know, like self, the concept of self. So that's very amazing. So, it seems that, a lot of this artwork's done manually, right. Have the have a soul in it. But people could say like AI generated art not does not necessarily have a soul.

00:02:34:03 - 00:03:06:16
Jie Ren
So, I really want to hear your opinions about you know AI. So maybe let's start from the beginning. Right. So, you said that you graduated from a graphic design school in Paris, and then when you were starting there, you probably are exposed to digital technologies. I suppose. Right, So AI can be considered a digital technology. So, when you first encountered or heard about AI generated art, how was your, like what was your reaction to it initially?

00:03:06:18 - 00:03:35:18
Tommy Boureaux
Basically, my reaction was both. Because I think it's we need to do separate business hearts. So, maybe more illustration, graphic design to or from a project and arts or you work for yourself. And my first reaction was thinking as an ex graphic designer and ex illustrator. Or you think the job will maybe disappear because it means everybody can do this fashion without any skill.

00:03:35:20 - 00:03:58:06
Tommy Boureaux
And of course, it's a program for this kind of job for today. So, I was a bit sad about this idea. But then when I think about what I'm doing now as a painter and artist, I didn't fear something bad because it just a different tool to create basically. When you create for yourself, the tool is not everything

00:03:58:10 - 00:04:21:01
Tommy Boureaux
the idea is the most important. Instead, if you are working as a graphic designer, I would use Twitter. You need to respect some or to say in English to respect the idea of the customer, about the project. So of course, you are not free basically. And now is AI of course you can create, also then a customer can do with everything alone basically.

00:04:21:03 - 00:04:39:09
Tommy Boureaux
So, I don't know, it's two different ways I think to think on my job today of as not a job but both arts I didn't film nothing special. It was more about my more creative stuff on the computer that everything will change, It start to change very vastly, basically.

00:04:39:11 - 00:05:03:11
Jie Ren
Yeah, I agree with you because I also paint, you know that there on you in terms of Impressionism. Thank you. So yes, I know, I know that AI definitely has reduced the entry barrier for a lot of people. So, it's easy to use, and then with prompts you are able to create beautiful looking, art pieces, right.

00:05:03:13 - 00:05:31:21
Jie Ren
But so, it seems to be a little bit kind of making this world of artists more competitive. Right? But at the same time, I, I totally agree with you. The value of art speaks to people's emotions. And also, it's very much about idea rather than, like the presentation of the art form. So, you can consider definitely, you know, AI as a tool to facilitate that process.

00:05:31:21 - 00:05:50:21
Jie Ren
Right? So, it does take me, for example, I have been working on this piece, which is, 2D and 3D, trying to show that people are multi dimensional in different contexts. And I took me two months to finally finalizing the idea. I mean, the execution part is not easy, but

00:05:50:21 - 00:05:51:09
Tommy Boureaux
No, no.

00:05:51:11 - 00:06:28:12
Jie Ren
the so the ideation part is even longer, right. So yeah. So, in your process though like of your practice, right. Have you thought about at least of using AI to help you with the ideation, for example, from which angle I'm going to position this figure or you know, something about that, or if I want, you know, this background with a different color or something, you know, do you think that would be a better, or easier way to present this prototype of the idea before you fully commit to that?

00:06:28:14 - 00:06:53:23
Tommy Boureaux
Basically, for sure. I think about that because is something new. I'm curious person. So, I try quickly with ChatGPT at the beginning just to see what could be. I would be honest, it was a nice the first time I use, quickly the chatGPT to talk about art was interesting. Because I don't have people around me I can talk a lo with that.

00:06:54:01 - 00:07:15:10
Tommy Boureaux
I don't know, it was interesting to I don’t know play something pleasant. I don't know what to say. But then when I started to talk about my work, I tried to talk about my work. But the thing at the minute was, look like really give me a lot of idea is incredible. But then after a few days of distance, I was confusing about everything.

00:07:15:10 - 00:07:38:14
Tommy Boureaux
I don't know how to explain. It confused some little bit my process because I don't think in reality I was able to explain my work very well because it's a bit abstract. So also, for me, when I paint, I don't control everything, I starts with an idea. I have some sketch, but a lot of stuff is really psychological a little bit also, so I can't control.

00:07:38:16 - 00:08:01:21
Tommy Boureaux
So I mean, if I show my work to someone, you will see something totally different. So, then I understand That's why I started to talk with him. It was maybe about because sometimes you miss confidence of yourself, confidence of your idea. And if the I shouldn't tell you what you need to do, maybe you think, okay, I know what you do, but I think you're on my way.

00:08:01:21 - 00:08:25:06
Tommy Boureaux
I was losing if I'm doing this, I was losing, just the heart of my work, basically. And, it was interesting. But then I decided to don't do what we talk with him, and I don't use it anymore, because I think I have already enough stuff around me to do a lot of stuff, basically. So, I think it can help for sure.

00:08:25:06 - 00:08:42:05
Tommy Boureaux
For people losing confidence, it could be an idea to. I don't know if you win time because sometimes you're losing time about your heart just because you are afraid to. Do you need someone to do because I'm a teacher, you know? So, it's cool when I say to someone, this is a good idea, it trust is a good idea.

00:08:42:05 - 00:09:05:04
Tommy Boureaux
But before was thinking is not a good idea. So sometimes you need someone around you to just see you more confidence. And, I can give you this for sure, but it could be also dangerous because then you can be dependent of that and maybe you lose some fingers So very personal. And the most important stuff, because when you do hard is also, I think, something for you first before everything.

00:09:05:06 - 00:09:30:13
Tommy Boureaux
So, if you don't put out this stuff on the canvas, I don't know which technique you want to use. Maybe you lose the soul of your work basically. So, it could be a tool that maybe should be not the start of something to be maybe a to complement something if you lost. You told me about color. For example, sometime I using Photoshop when I'm lost because I'm talking or painting big painting.

00:09:30:15 - 00:09:48:23
Tommy Boureaux
Sometimes you say, okay, if I put blue is not good, I need to wait one week or two weeks to dry before. Yeah. So sometimes I can use Photoshop just to try quickly. Okay, this color looks good is so like that is fine. Photoshop helps a lot for that. So sometimes it could be an idea to ask you if your lost, but I don't know

00:09:48:23 - 00:09:54:08
Tommy Boureaux
anyways, if you win really time, you just win maybe confidence could be this.

00:09:54:10 - 00:10:15:04
Jie Ren
I completely agree with you. Yeah. So, they say, like AI could also be a good virtual companionship, right? No, I know that when it comes to art creation, it could be a little challenging because some of that is self-exploration, right? In terms of like how you see the world and how you want your art to speak for you.

00:10:15:04 - 00:10:24:21
Jie Ren
So, it's very much this kind of inner exploration process. Yeah. And then if you rely on the tool very much, you are losing your own voice, right?

00:10:24:23 - 00:10:30:04
Tommy Boureaux
So. Yeah. Yes, your culture, could be your culture, your story, your art, everything really. You man. Basically,

00:10:30:06 - 00:10:49:20
Jie Ren
yeah. Yeah, yes, exactly. Is like you is your signature, right. Yeah. And I also I noticed that in terms of like art creation is now this sequential process, meaning you have the idea completely thought through and then you just execute the idea and then no, it's not like that. So, a lot of the process is very much like you have some idea,

00:10:49:22 - 00:11:09:20
Jie Ren
and while you are working on this idea and then new ideas will pop up and then you are building upon the prior one, maybe you kind of destroy the prior one and then kind of proceed. So, yeah, it's not like a sequential process, right? So, like in terms of that, then maybe this art, these are tools may not be so helpful in terms of the sequential process.

00:11:09:20 - 00:11:10:12
Tommy Boureaux
In my opinion.

00:11:10:12 - 00:11:16:16
Jie Ren
We do need that pat on the shoulder right from AI to say you got this. You can do it.

00:11:16:18 - 00:11:39:18
Tommy Boureaux
So, what I think also but then everybody are different. I mean, everybody is free to know the way needs to what the tool needs to use. So, then it's really personal. So, then everybody need to decide the way you feel better. And then the most important, you feel happier about what you're doing, that your project is important for you is interesting for people.

00:11:39:20 - 00:11:43:20
Tommy Boureaux
And then whatever the way you start, basically, in my opinion.

00:11:43:22 - 00:12:10:05
Jie Ren
Yeah. So, I will have all the conversation about using AI, you know, in this case very much like a tool. It seems like the human eye, relationship in the art world is very much like collaboration. Right. So, let's, switch the direction of the conversation a little bit. Maybe let's talk about something, a little bit related to, like, the ethical process and then like your perception of, you know, like art,

00:12:10:10 - 00:12:34:20
Jie Ren
AI generated art. For example, Like, AI models are very much trained based upon existing art, right. And then in that case, from artist point of view, like, how do you see, this as a relationship to consent and then copyright. We know that I art and then copyright is still a very complex and evolving area of law.

00:12:34:22 - 00:12:38:00
Jie Ren
So how, so what’s your opinion there?

00:12:38:02 - 00:13:01:23
Tommy Boureaux
I think everybody, you have to know, if should remember one, there's thought I forgot which company may be OpenAI. I forgot that they start to use the Hayao Miyazaki drawing. So, people use a picture and the picture start to be Miyazaki style. And although everyone was really happy because everybody loves Hayao Miyazaki film, of course.

00:13:02:01 - 00:13:23:18
Tommy Boureaux
And you can start to see on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram pictures everywhere. So, you see some trailer about new movie of Miyazaki but it wasn't Miyazaki of course, and a lot of people was happy, for me, it was a bit sad. I was very sad though. How so, how so. Sad because I loved Miyazaki. I think already the message put on his film

00:13:23:18 - 00:13:46:15
Tommy Boureaux
are really, really important. Yes. It was everything totally contrary but what, what, what it says. As I don't know if you see the, he did a lot of documentary about his work process. What he doing Interestingly, you see his struggle or the energy put on the movie and as just people are fan about this and, and the reality, they didn't take any money off of that.

00:13:46:17 - 00:14:11:09
Tommy Boureaux
So, if on this case, Miyazaki I don't know. It takes it. He takes. Takes like, a partnership with OpenAI to say, okay, I give you the authorization to use my style for people to affirm, to take selfie on Instagram, everything. It could be nice because he decides it and it maybe takes some money about that.

00:14:11:09 - 00:14:34:06
Tommy Boureaux
So, I think is fair. But the way everything happened, it looks like we store your style, everything you create to make money, people use it to happy, but you have the problem about that, my opinion. So, I think for all masters a bit different. Leonardo da Vinci, they used to do plenty of that, but is very old painting. I mean, everything is more, free, right?

00:14:34:06 - 00:14:57:09
Tommy Boureaux
I don't I'll just say it. Everybody can use this picture, but from artist alive or recent artist I think it’s a big problem. And we need some protection for sure, because if not someone, we use your style, your work, your years of life. You used to do something singular, something personal to do just, whatever you want. So, it's not known, that's for sure.

00:14:57:10 - 00:15:02:17
Tommy Boureaux
So this part, I think it should be more protection for artists.

00:15:02:18 - 00:15:25:19
Jie Ren
I agree, I agree with you. So that's why the, the current law related to that is still like evolving. Hopefully we will see like more concrete, laws, along this line to protect living artists. Okay. And by the way, I'm also a big fan of Ghibli studio. I love all the animations on that studio. 100% huge respect for that artist.

00:15:26:00 - 00:15:52:05
Jie Ren
Huge. Okay, so, along this line though, you know, like, people could be using AI to, mix with existing artworks, right? Let's put this ethical topic aside. Right. Just think about like when people are using AI do thing that will reinforce any existing esthetic bias or, cultural, stereotypes.

00:15:52:06 - 00:16:18:20
Tommy Boureaux
I don't know in the future, but I think, well, more still stereotypes, because we can recognize your style. I think for me, I can recognize not every time, but often I see something strange I feel sometimes I see, for example, I love the painter Agoncillo. So, I used to see some copy of Agoncillo in AI, and I will quickly see something wrong it’s not him.

00:16:18:22 - 00:16:37:10
Tommy Boureaux
So, in my opinion, at the moment we have a kind of stereotype then the future. I don't know, because everything's going so fast now. But when you see someone using AI. Yeah, you can see on books, sometimes you can see on YouTube, stuff you see quickly that is AI. Yeah. So, I don't know in the future what will happen.

00:16:37:14 - 00:16:57:21
Tommy Boureaux
But at the moment I think is missing because everybody's doing different world. But then the image I'll recognize that depends of the, program using in my opinion. But as I say, I'm not a specialist, so I don't know a lot about that. I'm really follow about that. But what I see at the moment, I feel this sensation.

00:16:57:23 - 00:17:15:12
Jie Ren
Yeah. It's like if a lot of artworks are very, very much along that line. So maybe the generated art is also along that line. So, the majority of art is promoting that one style rather than, you know, like encouraging diversity of artworks. Right?

00:17:15:12 - 00:17:19:05
Tommy Boureaux
So, for sure it will change but at the moment,

00:17:19:07 - 00:17:22:15
Jie Ren
yeah. Yeah, you definitely need that diversity in the art world 100%.

00:17:22:17 - 00:17:24:15
Tommy Boureaux
This I think is important.

00:17:24:15 - 00:17:50:14
Jie Ren
So yeah. Exactly. So, I have one last question for you. I know that you are also an art teacher, right. Directing with our students all the time. So, based upon your interactions there and then your understanding of the needs of our students, how would you see AI could be, for example, helping with art education?

00:17:50:16 - 00:18:28:05
Tommy Boureaux
This is also complicated, for sure. I just talk about my, my work, because I'm teaching about painting drawing stuff. For me, in my opinion, when I was students. So I was, and as I told you, in the graffiti dance course, but I start with, like, a preparatory, artistic preparatory. So, it's kind of school. You prepare for everything. And even when I start graphic design, my teacher was very, very good because they said, even if you have Photoshop, illustrator, InDesign, After Effects, everything you want, we want you for the first year to work with your hand.

00:18:28:07 - 00:18:58:02
Tommy Boureaux
Yeah, I think it was very important because they said the structure for what you do, it will be your hands, your mind, so the computer will come later. We will know how to use, you need to do something different that other people. So, for me as a teacher but me, everybody would teach different way. I think it's it will be all the time important to start from the simple way to start to draw with your mind to observe with your eyes to be cross everything to, to not cross, walk or to draw.

00:18:58:04 - 00:19:22:06
Tommy Boureaux
And then you can use this on computer If you want, but you know it works. I think even if you Photoshop use the red, use the blue, use the magenta if you know to mix them ready to. If you know it will works, know to use it better on the computer. So, on my way to teach, I don't think it will be really interesting at the moment.

00:19:22:08 - 00:19:43:13
Tommy Boureaux
It can help maybe for students to understand quickly everything or to try some idea. But as I said, I really like people doing with hands because he's here to work as a kid. You see the drawing of kid that on any computer? Just what, colored pencils they can do. Amazing. It what he expressive drawing. So I think the beginning should start from that.

00:19:43:15 - 00:19:50:22
Tommy Boureaux
Then we have time to use computer, and you will have something different than other people. Anyway.

00:19:51:00 - 00:19:55:17
Jie Ren
Yes. So, it's very much like human first and then AI the second as a tool.

00:19:55:19 - 00:20:12:20
Tommy Boureaux
I think it’s the most first step always is the first step for sure. If not, you lose something and one day maybe AI would try and it would be something else. So, you don't know to do so. And today I'm pretty sure that you just Twitter will continue to work is because they have this this thing more than other people. They have more vocabulary more

00:20:12:20 - 00:20:32:02
Tommy Boureaux
idea they know it talks. So yeah, I think is pretty important to start with that. If not, if you have a kid, you can't, still give a computer too fast. You need to learn the basics of life and then maybe we can play with something else. So, I think we need to start with, as you say, humans, more humanity.

00:20:32:02 - 00:20:36:12
Tommy Boureaux
And then we can play with different tool as it in my opinion. No.

00:20:36:18 - 00:21:02:16
Jie Ren
Yeah. I agree with you. Okay. So yes. So, we need to understand how to create art. Right. From scratch, one stab at a time, and then also maybe the art, literature and then etc., history, etc. in order to fully appreciate art and art creation, then AI could be used as a tool to facilitate that. Right? So, we always say like keep human in the loop, right?

00:21:02:16 - 00:21:21:20
Jie Ren
For like AI, augmented scenarios. So, in this very case, like, artistic world. Right so we need to let the humanity lead the way. Got it. And AI is overwhelming us right. So, thank you so much, Tommy. I really enjoyed our conversation.

00:21:21:20 - 00:21:24:01
Tommy Boureaux
So sorry again for my English is not perfect.

00:21:24:01 - 00:21:34:16
Jie Ren
No, no. It's perfect. It is perfect. So, have a wonderful weekend, Thank you, you too. I'll see you in Florence or sometime, maybe in the near future, like in New York City or.

00:21:34:16 - 00:21:44:23
Tommy Boureaux
Yeah, of course, for sure. I don't know when, but I hope I really like New York City because they have an amazing, very amazing artist museum, museum. So is really the city I really like.

00:21:45:01 - 00:21:46:13
Jie Ren
That's true. But it's snowing.

00:21:46:13 - 00:21:50:19
Tommy Boureaux
So yeah, but I really love snow, so it's fun.

00:21:50:21 - 00:21:51:22
Jie Ren
All right. Thank you so much.

00:21:52:00 - 00:21:52:22
Tommy Boureaux
You're welcome.