Episode 3 - Female Entrepreneurship & Tech

00:00:17:17 - 00:00:43:03
Jie Ren
Hi everyone. Welcome to my podcast, When Tech Meets Ed. This is Professor Jie Ren. Today I'm very happy to have Heather Darnell from London joining us to talk about female entrepreneurship and tech. This is part of this special series for this month. And then Heather is the founder of the company, Ask the Boss. So Heather, could you please introduce yourself?

00:00:43:05 - 00:01:17:03
Heather Darnell
Sure. First, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. So, Ask the Boss is a accountancy firm, although I didn't start out as an accountancy firm, when I started Ask the Boss in 2003, it was originally just a finance director, consultancy or CFO consultancy because I had left the big business world and really wanted to provide the same kind of services and tools that big business had to small businesses.

00:01:17:05 - 00:01:42:04
Heather Darnell
And finance director was what my skill set was. So, I started out as a one-man band on my own. And over time, it became really clear that our clients needed more help with bookkeeping and accounting. So, I slowly but surely built up a team around me that did those things. And I think after about 20 years of it.

00:01:42:10 - 00:01:46:21
Jie Ren
I actually went on to that in 2003. [Heather Darnell: That was 2003.]

00:01:46:23 - 00:02:02:12
Heather Darnell
And I think it was maybe almost 20 years into it. I went back to school and technically became an accountant myself. I got qualified here in the UK. So now I am an accountant and I run an accountancy firm.

00:02:02:14 - 00:02:23:01
Jie Ren
Oh, that is amazing. So, I did look at your company's website. I did a little bit of research, my homework. So, I know that your company, you know, has gone through more than 20 years. Right? And you guys also, look at the map that you guys are showing, some sort of timeline. There are so many great, [inaudible] moments.

00:02:23:03 - 00:02:36:03
Jie Ren
Could you please, like, share with us? You know, like, I can't imagine as a, as the entrepreneur, it is always so memorable in terms of your very first client. Right. So could you please share that?

00:02:36:05 - 00:02:59:23
Heather Darnell
Yes. Well, I think like a lot of people starting out, your first clients are going to be people you know already because it's so hard to sell yourself to, to without, you know, a lot of experience behind you. So, my first ever big, proper client was a great friend of mine. She ran a marketing firm, and I think you can see it on our story, on the website.

00:03:00:01 - 00:03:18:20
Heather Darnell
There's a picture of their team. And we started out doing some small projects for them and then did more and more over time. And until they finally stopped their company. We worked with them for years and years. Yeah. Great, great memories of them.

00:03:18:22 - 00:03:28:19
Jie Ren
So, starting from the very first client. Right. And then you can kind of reach out to their connections and then kind of like, it's like a snowball effect, right? [Heather Darnell: Absolutely true.]

00:03:28:21 - 00:03:55:08
Heather Darnell
That's true. Most I would say over 80% of all of our clients over the years have come from referrals from existing clients. I tried all the normal stuff. I went to networking events, you know, posted on social, that sort of thing. But in most business, it's connections with humans or people recommending people that that is the great, great way to grow your business.

00:03:55:10 - 00:04:25:00
Heather Darnell
And yeah, the first three clients were so hard, you know, to get. But once you have a critical mass, as you say, it snowballs. And then they tell people and then they tell people and, and that's, that's when you get great success. I mean, I'll tell you an embarrassing story, but it just got a good ending, which is that my very first year of trading, my total turnover was 6,000 pounds.

00:04:25:02 - 00:04:43:04
Heather Darnell
And now we've been over 1 million pounds a year for years now. But it does start small. And the beginning bit is the most difficult. It's not like it gets easy after that. You have different problems as you grow, but getting those first clients is really difficult.

00:04:43:06 - 00:05:04:13
Jie Ren
Now we are talking about the difficulties and the challenges. Right. And then you also talked about at the beginning is always not always like usually. Right. So, the most challenging phase. Right. But other than that, any other like big moments. And where you when you are thinking, wow, you know like this is it right? I need to have to like put on my bad scene in order to survive this moment.

00:05:04:18 - 00:05:06:23
Jie Ren
Do you want to share any moments of that?

00:05:07:01 - 00:05:31:20
Heather Darnell
Well, almost all of them have to do with staff. I'll never forget the first time I hired a permanent staff member, as opposed to an intern or temporary help. It's a huge responsibility to take on of having an employee. That was a very big deal. And I think probably when I set out, I said I would never have a company with more than ten people in it.

00:05:31:20 - 00:05:57:02
Heather Darnell
I really like that small company vibe and culture. So, I really remember when we went over ten people. At some point we were so big. We had 16 people, and it didn't take long for me to realize, no, I really do like it smaller. So, we've been between 8 and 10 people now for a few years. That is our perfect kind of sweet spot.

00:05:57:04 - 00:06:15:21
Heather Darnell
And then again, probably the most recent, hugely memorable moment was just over a year ago when three of the staff became shareholders in the business. So really, all of the most exciting moments, both scary and positive, have all been around staff.

00:06:15:23 - 00:06:40:01
Jie Ren
Yeah, I did see the badge that you guys put on your website, like employee-owned company was such a proud, proud thing to do. Right. And also, your story that you guys demonstrated on website, I did see like throughout the many years. Right. And when there are some permanent staff members joining the team and you say “someone someone” joined the team, that's really amazing, right?

00:06:40:01 - 00:06:54:02
Jie Ren
And then also, I know that we are going to definitely address female entrepreneurship, right. And then maybe if we want to talk about it now you can. Like in terms of this kind of family vibe that you are creating. Could you please elaborate that?

00:06:54:04 - 00:07:21:03
Heather Darnell
Yeah. Yeah. I might not be great at talking about this. It's one of those things that's hard to put into words, but. But yes, very much so. The environment in the office and our, our colleagues, it is. I don't think family is the right word, but there is definitely something nurturing the relationship is definitely more than just employee to employee.

00:07:21:05 - 00:07:47:08
Heather Darnell
And you know, watching other people grow, which you can do when someone's been with you for a long time, is one of the most rewarding things I think about owning a business. So, it's got elements of, of family in it. But yeah, it's really important. And I think that there are a lot of men entrepreneurs that are very good at that nurturing as well.

00:07:47:13 - 00:08:02:02
Heather Darnell
But I would say probably still, on balance, more women owned businesses create that environment than men owned ones. But then again, not every woman's like that either. It's specific to the person.

00:08:02:04 - 00:08:24:00
Jie Ren
Yeah. So now we have talked about the journey and we will loop back to it when you are like giving suggestions to future female entrepreneurs later. And then let's now kind of shift that topic to the use of IT, like technology in your own journey. Yeah. Especially in the early days. Yeah. Could you please share any stories?

00:08:24:02 - 00:08:52:11
Heather Darnell
Well, sure. But when I started, it was so long ago that my technological journey will sound idiotic now. I mean, I'll never forget when I started, I bought a desktop computer. I bought software that came on disks that you had to load into your computer. I mean, it was just such a different world. Probably the only thing I did then that has a correlate now is I had to build a website.

00:08:52:13 - 00:09:17:16
Heather Darnell
And, you know, I used one of those template systems, like everyone does. But I suspect today with the use of AI helping you generate things; it would be a lot quicker and easier. But yeah. So, my early technology journey was not very interesting. Our use of technology over the last 20 odd years has been hugely transformative.

00:09:17:18 - 00:09:56:17
Heather Darnell
We went paperless as a company and remember we’re accountants. We went paperless years and years and years ago. I think it might have been 2005, if I'm remembering it correctly. And we moved into the cloud only solutions probably about 2010. So, it's amazing that how, how much easier it is nowadays with all subscription-based software and everything in the cloud, so much so than when, when Covid came and we essentially got kicked out of our office with almost no notice.

00:09:56:19 - 00:10:24:13
Heather Darnell
We all scattered to our own homes. But we picked up like nothing-like nothing had happened. Yeah, it's amazing what technology can do now. And I do still see some business owners today living with kind of the old technology regime, keeping private servers, really kind of, making a rod for their own back, I think.

00:10:24:15 - 00:10:47:07
Heather Darnell
Technologies moved on so much now that having everything in the cloud and having people able to work from anywhere is, is really critical. Since Covid, we've even implemented a policy that any of our staff can work from anywhere in the world for up to a month at a time, as long as they overlap with at least half of the UK working day.

00:10:47:09 - 00:11:02:06
Heather Darnell
So, we've had the Italian office, the Pakistani office, the Indian office, the China office. It's and you can only really do that when your technology is set up in such a way to have freedom of movement.

00:11:02:08 - 00:11:25:03
Jie Ren
Yeah. You, touched upon connectivity, right. By the use of IT. Right. And then in your examples, you talk about like how workers are working by video, for example, zoom, etc. Like now you're connecting with us from London, but the use of technology. And then, could you please give some examples in terms of how IT is transforming how businesses communicate?

00:11:25:09 - 00:11:36:08
Jie Ren
I can imagine in 2003 Facebook was not founded. Right. And you were relying on the website to communicate to your client. Yeah. And then do want to elaborate on that?

00:11:36:10 - 00:12:01:11
Heather Darnell
Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest communication and technology issues in business today is usually decided by which company you work for, because they make one really important decision that's usually a companywide thing. And that is, are you a Microsoft house where you're going to use teams? Are you a Google house where you're going to use Google Meet?

00:12:01:13 - 00:12:27:13
Heather Darnell
Are you a slack type company where you use huddles, or do you use zoom and because we're accountants, so we deal with lots of different clients. We have clients that use every single one of those platforms, and the way you personalize each of those is really important in today's business, because, you don't see so many people face to face anymore.

00:12:27:15 - 00:12:58:04
Heather Darnell
People make judgments on what little information they have. And what do you have? You have your background. You have, you know, what have you put as your name in in your whichever system you're using. Is it your initials? Are you using your kid’s login? Is it very corporate? Do you have a corporate Back drop? All of those things send signals and clues in business now that are specific to those technology and communication platforms.

00:12:58:04 - 00:13:31:17
Heather Darnell
So, one of my recommendations is always to people, particularly when they're starting up in business and really trying to, you know, get yourself out there: is make sure that you're representing yourself in the way you want to be seen, using whatever technology you use. I can't tell you the number of interviews I've done where someone has their laundry hanging behind them or something like that, that you just kind of lose all respect for someone really quickly over something kind of small.

00:13:31:19 - 00:13:48:03
Heather Darnell
So, although we're talking about technology and, and communication, what I really want to say is that it's almost platform independent. It's how you use it and that the human side of it that's really important in business.

00:13:48:05 - 00:14:08:03
Jie Ren
Yes, I agree. I remember like in one of the orientations where I was saying the same thing to my students. Like, be careful what you post online, right? In terms of we use our social media. This is the same thing, right? It's kind of your branding strategy, like how you want others to perceive you, especially in the business context.

00:14:08:05 - 00:14:11:04
Heather Darnell
Absolutely.

00:14:11:06 - 00:14:41:02
Jie Ren
So maybe let’s talk about nowadays technologies. Right. And it’s-so changing so fast today especially given AI, gen AI, that is very much transforming society. And then if you were starting your business today right, facing these kinds of overwhelmingly big amount of technologies with such a wide variety of choices, like what would be you doing differently?

00:14:41:04 - 00:15:06:11
Heather Darnell
Yeah, it's a great question. And when you're first starting out and you haven't made those decisions yet, there's almost too much choice. So, my biggest recommendation is to talk to other people, particularly in your industry, if you already, you know, selected what it's going to be because by far and away, you'd be amazed at how many people like to share and help.

00:15:06:13 - 00:15:34:05
Heather Darnell
Don't ever be afraid of asking people what you know. What do you use? How did you select, you know, this software, what do you think about it? And gather that information from people? So, whether you go to industry events and do networking or whether you're on forums online, absolutely post the question and you'd be amazed at how many people answer or are willing to have a phone call with you, even if you've never met them before.

00:15:34:07 - 00:16:05:04
Heather Darnell
So, talk to other people. But once you make your selection and you start working with it, it doesn't end there because new technology comes all the time. So, whether it's, you know, going to industry events where, believe me, software providers will always be present there because they're trying to sell their wares to you. Reading information, whether whatever magazine or forums are relevant to your industry.

00:16:05:10 - 00:16:32:06
Heather Darnell
You know, look at those. I highly recommending trialing software. For almost every piece of software out there will give you a 14-day free trial. So as long as you've got the time and the effort to put in to trialing it, make use of those, I think that's really important. And never assume that whatever you are, you know, you we call it your stack.

00:16:32:06 - 00:17:02:19
Heather Darnell
What's your software stack? Don't ever think it's static. New things will happen all the time. I'm very lucky. I'm a member of something called that Early Adopters Hub, which is very specifically for the accounting industry, where people that are developing software for the industry will come to us and show us their product as they're building it and get their feedback, get our feedback to help their development process.

00:17:02:21 - 00:17:22:09
Heather Darnell
So, it means we get really early access to new tools and get to talk to the founders and people building it. So that helps us select new software all the time. But yeah, if there's anything like that in whatever business you're going into, see if you can find yourself one of those groups.

00:17:22:11 - 00:17:45:11
Jie Ren
Okay. So, I have a follow up question on this, right. So, you are saying that technologies are changing all the time and we could like, try the different, especially new technologies as we are connecting with different people from the industries especially networking sites, they’re always so friendly to offer. Right. And also, these software vendors, they want to offer like new products.

00:17:45:13 - 00:18:10:12
Jie Ren
So, from your experiences, as you are changing the adoption of different software, for example, to upgrade it or change it entirely, I don't know what you are using, for example, Microsoft all the way to Apple. How do you deploy that in your company so that your employees do not complain and your clients don't complain, etc.? Or do you want to share your experience?

00:18:10:12 - 00:18:42:03
Heather Darnell
It's a great question and depending on how big the shift is from your change in software, it can be anywhere from almost seamless to truly painful. And so, you know, every scenario is unique. But I would say whatever you do, if you're going to be installing a new software or implementing it in your company, or even the harder pushing it out to your clients, make sure you've been the guinea pig first.

00:18:42:05 - 00:19:05:18
Heather Darnell
You know you have to use it. Get to know what's good about it. What's not good about it. Be able to enunciate the things that it's helping you do and therefore why it's better. Because one thing that doesn't help the process is just telling someone what features it has. What really helps is telling it how it helps you.

00:19:05:20 - 00:19:28:09
Heather Darnell
You know, no one loves software for itself, really. Maybe unless you built it yourself. You love it for what it does for you. So be sure to talk about the benefits of it and how it helps you, the person, do your job rather than some cool new feature it has. [Jie Ren: Yeah, I love that.]

00:19:28:11 - 00:19:31:12
Jie Ren
Yeah. Go ahead. Yes.

00:19:31:14 - 00:19:59:09
Heather Darnell
So yeah. Kind of advice piece number one is make yourself a guinea pig so you can truly talk about it with honesty to other people. And number two, depending on how difficult it is for the most difficult switches, the best thing you can do is sit with them as you show it to them. Come back four days later, sit with them again, come back four days later, sit with them again.

00:19:59:09 - 00:20:21:08
Heather Darnell
Because its only once people start using it that they really get good questions and things like that. So don't think that you can just put a piece of new software out there, do one set of training and walk away. No no, no. You know, the more time you can devote to helping people get used to the new, new software, the better.

00:20:21:10 - 00:20:41:02
Jie Ren
Yeah. I like, the message that you are delivering from your answer, which is you want to know what the software does for you and you want to try it yourself, not because of the price or the brand or some other companies are doing it. So, you have to follow that trend as well. It's kind of that alignment that matters.

00:20:41:04 - 00:20:53:02
Jie Ren
Okay. So, I'm going to switch to kind of the, the hottest topic right now, artificial intelligence. Right. In your company are you using any of that in your day-to-day work?

00:20:53:04 - 00:21:19:12
Heather Darnell
Yeah. And I'd say almost every three months we use it significantly more than the three months prior. And I think that will continue just because so many new things are coming out now. So, we use it very simply, like a lot of other people to, to help generate content to, to start, a report or anything you need to write.

00:21:19:14 - 00:21:52:13
Heather Darnell
Just so, so nice to get the bare bones of something down first and then you edit it rather than starting from scratch. But we in our industry, we use a lot of AI. And, I'd say all of the examples I can give you are so weirdly specific to, to ours, but we've recently bought, a tax AI tool that I would say has probably been the biggest game changer in the technology we've used at our firm in over ten years.

00:21:52:15 - 00:22:06:02
Heather Darnell
It's that good. But I will tell you, all the versions before it that other people came out with were horrible. So, you have to constantly try and see what's out there.

00:22:06:04 - 00:22:35:19
Jie Ren
That is amazing, right? How I could, like, help you in terms of your day-to-day operations and especially the use of, the AI tools to create content, for example, social media posting. Right. Okay. Before we go to the next part of the conversation, which is, you know, your suggestions to the female entrepreneurs in the future, I also want to, touch upon your very new initiative, which is the accelerator program.

00:22:35:21 - 00:22:38:21
Jie Ren
Do you want to talk about that? You are helping the startups.

00:22:38:23 - 00:23:03:03
Heather Darnell
Yeah. Well, it's a real passion of all of ours, at the office. I think there's a lot of industries. You might think that accountants are quite closed off people that don't like talking to people, but it's not true. You know, we really like to help people. And this accelerator program is some of the most rewarding things we do.

00:23:03:05 - 00:23:29:15
Heather Darnell
Because you find a company that's early stage. They might not have a lot of funding. And we're not cheap. We're very much a boutique firm. So, you get great service from us. But it's more expensive than typical. So, there's some companies that can't afford what we do yet, but we know that if they're really willing to learn and they're really committed to it, we will dedicate time to them,

00:23:29:18 - 00:23:54:18
Heather Darnell
Pro bono. And give them a discount as they grow to help them get to that point where they are making enough money that they can afford our fees. And its great fun to watch because there's lots of people that startup businesses, but it never goes anywhere. As soon as they start it, they realize how hard it is and it and it stops.

00:23:54:20 - 00:24:19:20
Heather Darnell
Those aren't the people we want to help. So, it's about finding people you can just apply to our program and you know, if it's a good fit, then we do dedicate the time to help them get set up, pick their systems. Get in a place where they can make really informed decisions based on their financial information, that will help them grow their business.

00:24:19:22 - 00:24:21:22
Heather Darnell
It's lovely. It's really nice.

00:24:22:00 - 00:24:45:10
Jie Ren
I can imagine. Right. So, this program started in 2022. So, this is like almost four years, right? And I mean, I really like that how you guys put together these statistics rates in terms of, how many people like, what is the ratio of like companies, startups, that tend to fail out of all the starting startups.

00:24:45:15 - 00:25:02:11
Jie Ren
So, you can see this is, is it kind of like a very true fact that there is a high failure rate in the field of entrepreneurship? So, it takes risks, right. Do you do believe this saying that entrepreneurs are always like risk takers?

00:25:02:13 - 00:25:28:06
Heather Darnell
No. See, I have a completely different take on this. Most of the entrepreneurs I know, when I've worked with a lot of them over the years, are very calculated risk takers. They're not reckless. They don't just take huge risks and leap into the unknown based on nothing. They take risks, but they're calculated risks.

00:25:28:06 - 00:25:55:12
Heather Darnell
They think about the alternatives. And I don't think most businesses fail because someone has risked too much and it's gone bad that way. I don't think that's what causes so many startups to fail. But I do think entrepreneurs are very good at calculating risk and understanding risk and selecting the best way forward. Based on the information they have.

00:25:55:14 - 00:26:18:05
Heather Darnell
And you also, you get different types of entrepreneurs. I'm a slow entrepreneur. Remember I said my first-year turnover was 6,000 pounds for the whole year? It took me a long time to start. But, you know, bit by bit, year by year, you know, it's grown. And once we hit critical mass now, I don't feel like I take risks anymore.

00:26:18:06 - 00:26:42:15
Heather Darnell
It's very stable. You get other people. I was just talking with a client today who's got the opportunity to massively increase their lease so they could increase the space they have and deliver more services to their customers, but at a huge cost. So, we spent weeks modeling out and discussing what? What if we do this? What if we do that?

00:26:42:15 - 00:27:04:20
Heather Darnell
What if this happens? What can we do to mitigate that risk? Is there any way to lessen the impact? And only then do they make a decision. No one ever hears, minute one: ‘here's an opportunity’, and they just say yes, go for it. So no, I don't think entrepreneurs are risk takers. I know that's a bit controversial.

00:27:04:22 - 00:27:26:12
Jie Ren
I agree with you. I mean it's not only the risk itself, like the bolder the better. You also need to evaluate the situation to see and to evaluate the risks as well as the potential gains. Right. And then they news, that definitely will matter. Right. And also, be resilient as you said. Right. You started with not so much gain in the beginning.

00:27:26:12 - 00:27:55:05
Jie Ren
And then throughout the so many years of so many challenges that you have tackled in order to achieve to the current state, which is quite stable. Right? So, like being a female yourself, right. And then can you imagine there could be some challenges, that are, you know, as a woman. Right. So, could you please share your advice that it could give to any future female entrepreneurs?

00:27:55:07 - 00:28:23:22
Heather Darnell
Sure. So, I would say the two things I see the most often that women entrepreneurs do, that they're doing themselves a disservice by doing is number one: they over service. If you're in a service business and someone pays you to do ‘x, y and Z,’ you do ‘x, y, z,’ ‘ABC’, ‘PDQ’. women tend to over deliver.

00:28:24:00 - 00:28:47:17
Heather Darnell
And this is a really big mistake to make. Number one, you're giving away a lot of time for free. Number two, you're setting up your clients to expect that all the time, and particularly in the early days where you have free time, it's one thing later on as you scale, you can't do it anymore. And then you're taking away something that a client has gotten used to.

00:28:47:19 - 00:29:33:06
Heather Darnell
And number three, I think women more than men, want to not be a people pleaser. But we like when people are happy around us. And so over servicing sometimes comes out of that. And I would say to anyone that starts out and finds themself over servicing, which you will, is, the shift in mindset, in communication you need to take on is to say to your client, ‘I know you've only signed up to this package or this service, but I am going to do this other thing for you, which normally costs x, but for you, I'm going to do at a discounted rate or for free for two months.’

00:29:33:07 - 00:29:57:00
Heather Darnell
‘But then if it's going to continue, I need to charge you’. Because if you don't set out at the beginning, the extra work you're going to do, it just becomes part of the expectation. So, I think it's really effective if you say to someone ‘I normally charge 1,000 pounds for this, but for you, I will do it for two months for free.’

00:29:57:02 - 00:30:18:05
Heather Darnell
‘And then if you want it to continue, I'll only charge you 750 pounds.’ Then you can you end up narrowing the gap between what you're being paid for and what you're doing. So that's my one big piece of advice is don't be too much of a people pleaser. Don't over service.

00:30:18:07 - 00:30:37:17
Jie Ren
Yeah, I cannot agree with you more of this. Okay. I know this is, still happening in so many, so many cultures. So, Yeah, in my culture, like, growing up. Right? Well, I don't know. Well, I think you can relate to that as well. Right. I think I have been a people pleaser myself as well.

00:30:37:18 - 00:30:40:10
Jie Ren
I have been like struggling with it as well.

00:30:40:12 - 00:30:57:00
Heather Darnell
I can't even in academia you'll find that it's the women that more often volunteer for the committees that everyone needs to be on more than the men do. And we want to be helpful and we want to be a part of it, but it's really important you do set boundaries.

00:30:57:02 - 00:31:10:00
Jie Ren
Yeah, I cannot agree more on this. Right? Know the value of our like offering is, right, especially in the business context. Right. And to manage the client's expectations better.

00:31:10:02 - 00:31:37:04
Heather Darnell
Which is a great segue into my second recommendation for women entrepreneurs, which is that they always undervalue themselves and underprice themselves. So, if your industry typically charges 200 pounds an hour for your work, when you start out, you say, ‘Oh, no one's going to pay me that. I'll only charge 70 pounds, and one day I'll work my way up to that.’

00:31:37:05 - 00:32:05:08
Heather Darnell
Well, again, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You're telling people from day one that you're not as valuable. And number two, it's really, really hard to increase prices once someone's gotten used to a lower one. So again, one of my recommendations is to say we normally charge 250 pounds an hour, but for you will only charge 175 for the first six months.

00:32:05:10 - 00:32:34:20
Heather Darnell
There's really ways to, to change the, the narrative. But don't be afraid to try to price yourself at what the real market value is. And you know, whether it's imposter syndrome or whatever it is. You might think that there's people out there that are better at this than you or could charge more. But you know what? No. There's always going to be someone better than you, but there's always someone that you're better than.

00:32:34:22 - 00:33:07:06
Heather Darnell
And if the market value is x, you should charge x. So yeah, I see people get into real difficulties by underpricing themselves. And if you're a product business, that's even more dangerous because the margins in product businesses are much smaller. And if you do start giving away an extra commission or discount to a retailer or someone or your cost go up a bit, or God forbid, a new tariff comes in you hadn't planned for.

00:33:07:08 - 00:33:28:18
Heather Darnell
It's harder to manage those margins. So, start strong, start high. And don't feel as though you're charging too much for what you're worth. And that is definitely something that I think affects women entrepreneurs a billion times more than men entrepreneurs.

00:33:28:19 - 00:33:48:23
Jie Ren
Well, thank you so much for the wonderful insights. So, I totally agree with you, especially your final two suggestions to the female entrepreneurs, right? Know our worth. Be confident about what we offer. I think that is the essential message. Thank you so, so much, Heather, for your time.

00:33:48:23 - 00:33:50:05
Heather Darnell
It’s my pleasure.

00:33:50:05 - 00:33:52:03
Jie Ren
And meeting with us from London. Thank you so much.