Behind the Bargaining Table: George Atallah on the NFLPA, the CBA, and Player Power

00;00;07;28 - 00;00;43;00
Mark Conrad
Hello and welcome to the Sports Business Podcast with Prof. C, the podcast that explores the world of professional, collegiate, amateur and Olympic sports. I'm Mark Conrad or Prof. C., from Fordham University's Gabelli School of Business, where I serve as professor of law and ethics and the director of the Sports Business Initiative. Labor management relations have been a key part of the professional sports landscape in the United States for about half a century.

00;00;43;02 - 00;01;14;12
Mark Conrad
Because pro athletes are employees. They're entitled to form and join unions under federal labor laws that were enacted back in the 1930s. Athletes were not the kind of workers originally targeted by these laws. In fact, they were late into the unionization movement as their players associations were recognized about 30 years later. Since that time, player unions have been central to the expansion of player compensation,

00;01;14;14 - 00;01;47;24
Mark Conrad
benefits and rights. Complex and detailed collective bargaining agreements focusing on issues such as salary caps, disabilities, guaranteed contracts, pensions, and arbitration are negotiated between the players unions and the respective leagues to ensure labor peace. When these agreements expire, the failure to secure a new agreement may result in players striking or, more commonly, lockouts by leagues and their team owners.

00;01;47;26 - 00;02;15;23
Mark Conrad
Many fans recall lockouts in all of the major sports leagues at one time or another, but many of us may not know the history and operation of these unions. What they do, how they function, and what leverage they have to answer these and other questions. We are joined by George Atallah, who is assistant executive director of external affairs for the NFL Players Association

00;02;15;26 - 00;02;55;13
Mark Conrad
from 2009 to 2025. During his tenure at the NFLPA George helped the union navigate the highest profile issues involving the 2011 NFL lockout to the 2020 collective Bargaining agreement. After leaving the NFLPA, he launched SOMEBPDY, a strategic advisory firm that involves business, sports and entertainment. George has an undergraduate degree in English and philosophy from Boston College and an MBA in international business from George Washington University.

00;02;55;15 - 00;02;58;21
Mark Conrad
George, welcome to the Sports Business Podcast,

00;02;58;23 - 00;03;02;21
George Atallah
Prof C., pleasure to be with you. So glad we can make the time today.

00;03;02;24 - 00;03;11;01
Mark Conrad
And same here. So, let's start us off. Can you tell listeners about the role of unions in the world of professional athletes?

00;03;11;04 - 00;03;48;20
George Atallah
Labor unions in sports are not unlike labor unions in the rest of American business and American companies. Historically, I think most people associate labor unions or the initiation of labor unions with the auto workers unions and steel workers unions and other industries that came about at the turn of the 20th century in America. And then sports unions followed, at least for the NFL Players Association followed in the 1950s, when athletes and football players realized that they needed protections.

00;03;48;22 - 00;04;32;07
George Atallah
As the sports industry grew into a revenue generating behemoth. So, I think a lot of similarities exist between labor unions that traditionally American history and legal scholars talk about who are fighting for the same stuff working conditions, health and safety, or fair shares of revenues, how we go about, you know, protecting benefits for employees. And you said it at the top professional athletes are employees and labor unions are there to advocate for those protections and those advancements.

00;04;32;10 - 00;04;41;16
Mark Conrad
Why do you think that the union movement came later in professional sports than, say, in autoworkers, steelworkers and the like.

00;04;41;18 - 00;05;16;24
George Atallah
Because those other industries were more mature as it related to their business presence, their business growth. You couldn't compare the NFL in the mid 50s and early 60s to say, Ford and General Motors, right? In terms of how mature they were as a business. And so I think as those industries sort of grew, meaning sports industry and became revenue generating machines, they started to get television rights, franchises started to make more money beyond just ticket sales.

00;05;16;27 - 00;05;53;03
George Atallah
Well, the athletes saw that growth. And we’re still not getting those protections and their fair share of those salaries. I think that's when you started to see the advocacy for labor unions sort of take place. One quick story for you, Prof. C And I think the lawyers or the aspiring lawyers will appreciate this. The NFL Players Association really was founded on the back of a player named Bill Radovich, who was a U.S. military veteran, came home. You know, wanted to move teams to be closer to his father.

00;05;53;03 - 00;06;19;10
George Atallah
And even though he was out of contract, they wouldn't let him move teams. So, he filed a lawsuit that then became the basis for, you know, that we won decades later, but they became the basis for free agency. So, I think labor unions also have this history of legal advocacy that is intricately tied to the advancements that athletes have made over the last 50 years.

00;06;19;12 - 00;06;49;07
Mark Conrad
And that leads us to the late 80s and 1990s, when the union and certain individual players utilized the courts in a number of cases, trying to challenge some of the activities of the NFL with regard to certain issues of contract rights, and that arguably may have led to the 1993 collective bargaining agreement, the basis of which is still present in the present agreements.

00;06;49;10 - 00;06;57;06
Mark Conrad
Why do you think that the union resorted to go to court as often as it did during that time?

00;06;57;08 - 00;07;22;08
George Atallah
Leverage. I mean, again, you hit it at the top. Players, associations, and athletes and workers of all kind and labor unions of all kind rely on leverage to get a desired outcome. And I think legal leverage, especially for the sports unions. And I think you're seeing that now. I don't want to spin it too forward, but you're seeing that now with athletes in college.

00;07;22;11 - 00;07;52;29
George Atallah
Legal leverage is a very important way or a very powerful way for athletes to get the outcomes that they want. When you don't have a situation like free agency, as an example, which we sort of take for granted as sports fans and as observers of sports in a business context, when clubs and leagues prevent players from moving around, well, they have a couple of options they can file for antitrust or take a legal leverage option to get what they want,

00;07;53;01 - 00;08;12;26
George Atallah
or they can go on strike to get what they want. And in football, they tried both. And both of those tactics were designed to generate as much leverage as possible, which ultimately resulted in free agency for professional football players in 1993.

00;08;12;29 - 00;08;42;06
Mark Conrad
Right. And it also got to the point where some players wanted to disband the union to increase their leverage. That ultimately dealt with that 1993 agreement that only led to that, which was really part of a judicial settlement. But why do you think that the players had to go to that extreme to use their leverage? Was it saying that the union was not strong enough in the 1980s to get some of the free agent rights, if you will, that you see now?

00;08;42;08 - 00;09;03;07
George Atallah
Well, I think it's not a question of the union being strong or weak. It's more of a question of they were attempting to literally break a system. I mean, for fans of Game of Thrones who are listening to this thing, we were trying to break the wheel or players were trying to break the wheel of how the system was running during that time.

00;09;03;09 - 00;09;31;14
George Atallah
And that takes a tremendous amount of effort, especially when you're dealing with a group of people who are operating like an economic cartel, frankly, and did not want to make any changes, wanted to keep all the power and control and economic benefits to themselves. When you're trying to break a system and that goes for any system. The amount of energy and leverage that you have to expend is tremendous, and it just takes time.

00;09;31;15 - 00;09;49;15
George Atallah
You have to keep chipping away and chipping away and chipping away. There's no magic formula for how to make sweeping changes that you saw in the NFL in the late 80s and early 90s. You just have to use whatever power you think you have to make that change.

00;09;49;18 - 00;09;59;23
Mark Conrad
And that came also in the heels of a strike in 1987 that was generally recognized as not that successful for the union.

00;09;59;25 - 00;10;36;10
George Atallah
Yeah, the ‘87 strike wasn't as successful as it was intended to be, but it still generated leverage that brought about the antitrust suit, which resulted in free agency. So again, in a vacuum, in a micro context. Yes. No doubt. Did not set out or did not result in what they set out to do, but it set the table for how athletes and football players would ultimately get and achieve free agency in 1993.

00;10;36;12 - 00;10;46;03
George Atallah
That process, for those who don't know, took multiple years and even after they won, took multiple years to enforce.

00;10;46;05 - 00;11;08;25
Mark Conrad
It was a very long litigation. Yeah, meaning to that. And certainly if any of you out there are law students, any tech sports law, you will be reading a number of cases during that litigation that got to the point of ultimately the 1993 agreement, It was a very long litigation [ George Atallah: Yeah.] and leading to that. And certainly, if any of you out there are law students and you take sports law, you will be reading a number of cases during that litigation that got to the point of ultimately the 1993 agreement, which was a settlement, and it is still the template of what is looked at today, although, of course, there have been changes was the settlement, and it is still the template of what is looked at today, although, of course have been changes.

00;11;08;25 - 00;11;20;21
Mark Conrad
and we may get into maybe predicting the future a bit later on. But when you were at the NFLPA as assistant executive director of External affairs, what was your role? 

00;11;20;24 - 00;11;58;02
George Atallah
Well, we wore a lot of hats and my role evolved over the years. I will say, reflecting back, being two years now, almost two years now out of the institution. We were so lucky to have a leadership team that was aligned around clear objectives, to advocate for the players. So, my role specifically was external facing. It was sort of a long and quite frankly, goofy title, but really it highlighted the point that our public presence, our advocacy in the press, how we deal with partners externally,

00;11;58;04 - 00;12;22;15
George Atallah
everything from my role was external facing. And that was just one component of a leadership team that was designed to really maximize our advocacy on behalf of players, to make the games that we needed to make. Then those games were, you know, health and safety gains, bigger share of revenues, better surfaces, better benefits, greater advancements for former players.

00;12;22;18 - 00;12;37;22
George Atallah
I mean, the list, you know, again, looking back, we're pretty proud of our track record of how exponentially better the lives of NFL players and their families are. You know, given that that leadership team and the institution that we had.

00;12;37;25 - 00;13;05;06
Mark Conrad
We're talking with George Atallah, former assistant executive director of external affairs for the NFL Players Association. The NFLPA has a larger membership pool than respective unions in other sports. And you have members who obviously are all stars, all pros, commanding tens of millions of dollars per season with guaranteed contracts. But you also have practice squad players as part of your unit as well.

00;13;05;08 - 00;13;14;01
Mark Conrad
How did you, meaning the NFLPA, create a cohesive bargaining strategy with such a diverse group of workers?

00;13;14;04 - 00;13;56;10
George Atallah
It was very challenging, very, very challenging to do that. And that was especially true in 2020 because the 2011 deal effectively advanced the salaries and benefits of players exponentially over that period of time. And so, you get to a point where how you deal with the top end. And this played out publicly, right? Where, you know, players like Aaron Rodgers were very vocal about the deal, not doing enough for the top end of the market. But our role was to essentially try to get the most for the most.

00;13;56;12 - 00;14;41;15
George Atallah
You know, that was a phrase that I think we went through that 2020 deal, you know, beginning negotiations in late 2018, ultimately resulting in that agreement in March of 2020. We went through that deal looking to get the most for the most. And what our players told us. And I think this is the crucial thing, you know, for any labor union, whether you've got 2000 members or 200,000 members, what feedback are you getting from them to help shape the agenda and the agenda that really drove our positioning for that 2020 deal was increasing the salaries and accelerating the benefits for what we call the core player, 

00;14;41;17 - 00;15;03;03
George Atallah
right. It was your minimum salary to mid-level guys who were in the league who were not going to get the guaranteed contracts at the top end of the market. But as the salary cap sort of exploded, how were we going to move some of that money so that they could benefit from it?

00;15;03;06 - 00;15;25;17
Mark Conrad
And did you have tensions with some of the agents for the big-time players during all that time? Because as you say, the all-pro players may say, look, why should we have our contracts capped? We could make more on a quote unquote open market. So, we’re there. Tensions, communications between some of their agents and the union during the negotiations for that.

00;15;25;18 - 00;15;25;29
Mark Conrad

00;15;26;01 - 00;15;59;25
George Atallah
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely there were. And there were tensions between players in the union because it was a tough negotiation to try to get the most for the most. And I think when you're talking about agents, they have an interest which they're advocating for their own clients. Right. They have a smaller pool of clients to negotiate for. Whereas the unions, the exclusive collective bargaining agent for all the players, including, by the way, practice squad players.

00;15;59;27 - 00;16;27;02
George Atallah
So, we were in a position where the dynamics were set for us to go into it having a, by definition, fractured set of interests for the players in the agents. And it was our job to really do our best to coalesce as much of the players as we could get our bargaining unit, which, by the way, included active players.

00;16;27;04 - 00;16;49;20
George Atallah
So, I think that's a crucial thing that should be mentioned, is that active players were involved in those discussions throughout the process, and getting the most for the most became the rallying cry heading into that agreement. And, you know, history sort of showed that enough players bought in that resulted in a new deal.

00;16;49;22 - 00;17;04;17
Mark Conrad
But it was a fairly close vote for that agreement. [ George Atallah: Oh, yeah.] And closer than I think many a union would be comfortable with, because it certainly was, I think a 200-vote difference out of, what, about 2000 members.

00;17;04;19 - 00;17;08;12
George Atallah
It came down to about 60, actually.

00;17;08;14 - 00;17;09;17
Mark Conrad
It was that close.

00;17;09;20 - 00;17;10;22
George Atallah
Yeah.

00;17;10;25 - 00;17;33;20
Mark Conrad
Ironically, March 2020, many of you remember that was the dawn of the Covid era. Covid was just becoming a real public health issue in the United States at that time. So maybe coincidentally, I don't know if that had anything to do with the approval or not, but it just came at that time. And it is good for what, about ten years?

00;17;33;22 - 00;17;50;05
Mark Conrad
So, there'll be–– there is labor peace until around 2030. So how does 2020 compared with 2011, which was the first CBA that you helped negotiate? Was it tougher in 2020 than you think than in 2011?

00;17;50;07 - 00;18;20;26
George Atallah
Two very, very different dynamics. The 2011 deal, in a lot of ways, it didn't quite break the 1993 system, but it certainly changed and altered it significantly. It was also in the context of the NFL owners signaling and executing a lockout that lasted almost 200 days. So, the 2011 agreement was all about taking as much back from the players as they could.

00;18;20;29 - 00;18;47;21
George Atallah
The former NFLPA executive director had passed away suddenly in August of 2008, and almost immediately, the owner sort of jumped on that to try to engage in a strategy that was going to add 18 games, reduce the players share by 20%, take away their defined benefits plans and all sorts of other stuff that they were trying to get back from the players.

00;18;47;23 - 00;19;15;00
George Atallah
And so I think when DeMaurice Smith entered onto the scene, it was really about candidly fighting back in a labor context. How are we going to fight back and ensure that players maintain, if not gain or make some gains in the context of being locked out? So that was a dynamic in 2011, and that system was the first time we ever had a revenue share system, right?

00;19;15;00 - 00;19;20;03
George Atallah
So, to keep it super simple, because I'm not a math nerd,

00;19;20;06 - 00;19;21;21
Mark Conrad
Nor am I on it.

00;19;21;23 - 00;19;50;04
George Atallah
but to keep it super simple for every dollar that the NFL generated in revenues, NFL players were going to receive on average, $0.47 of that dollar throughout the course of the deal. That's what that 2011 deal dictated, which was much different than how the 2006 and previous deals were structured. So that's a bit on the 2011 deal. The 2020 deal was not about changing the system.

00;19;50;06 - 00;20;07;01
George Atallah
It was about how to maximize. It was one. It was the context was it was an early deal. It did not go to expiration. So how do we sort of manage through the fact that there's no lockout or strike or expiration threat number one. And then number

00;20;07;01 - 00;20;08;00
Mark Conrad

00;20;08;02 - 00;20;39;26
George Atallah
two, the system in essence, was going to be the same. What were players willing to accept in exchange for playing an extra game? Much different dynamic. And you know again I'm going to use this as an example. I'm sure a lot of people on this podcast, or maybe fans of the Tennessee Titans are aware there's a player named, Peter Skoronski, who signed a four-year, $100 million extension, 88 million guaranteed.

00;20;39;28 - 00;21;07;10
George Atallah
That deal is not possible without the collective bargaining agreement of 2020. $88 million for an offensive guard was something that was, you know, that was essentially like twice the salary cap amount in the mid 90s. So, I think looking back, that 2020 deal, especially in the context of Covid coming ended up being a pretty wise thing for the players to agree to.

00;21;07;13 - 00;21;22;00
Mark Conrad
And a few podcasts ago, I interviewed Ken Belson of The New York Times that wrote a book recently about really, the NFL and certain owners and Roger Goodell. And the conclusion is that this league is operating from strength to strength.

00;21;22;02 - 00;21;22;23
George Atallah
Yes.

00;21;22;26 - 00;21;25;17
Mark Conrad
And would you agree with that assessment?

00;21;25;19 - 00;21;53;22
George Atallah
Oh, yeah. I mean, we're on to talking about global domination at this point, right? I mean, the expansion of international this year, what they want to do in the future internationally, there's no doubt that the NFL continues to be, in my opinion, the strongest, healthiest economic venture in global sport, if not sort of American business at this point.

00;21;53;25 - 00;22;19;00
George Atallah
For context, when I started, the players association revenues were around 9 billion per year, and that was coming out of the recession of 2008, where valuations for clubs were actually decreasing at that time, given the economic conditions, whereas this year we're going to approach, or the NFL is going to approach almost $25 billion in revenue.

00;22;19;03 - 00;22;42;20
Mark Conrad
And that was the prediction of Roger Goodell even a little bit in the future. Actually, I think that surpasses prediction up to that point. So it was, you know, beyond success. So basically, the players right now are looking at an entity, a media company, a business entertainment firm, whatever you may call it, as well as a sports league that is just going through astronomical growth.

00;22;42;20 - 00;22;53;03
Mark Conrad
And we haven't seen the new TV deals coming into effect, which probably will come into effect or be agreed to before the expiration of the current CBA, if I'm correct.

00;22;53;05 - 00;23;21;26
George Atallah
Yeah, you are correct. And if those TV deals get negotiated with increases before the expiration of the collective bargaining agreement, players will reap the rewards of those too, right? Again, going to that simple math of, you know, for this deal, it's now almost a little more than 48% on every dollar of new revenue generated. A little more than $12 billion is what the players shares of these revenues are.

00;23;21;28 - 00;23;41;10
George Atallah
That's an incredible amount of value that has been created as a result of the players sticking together, binding behind a strategy of leverage to get what they want and deserve. And, you know, frankly, no deal is perfect and there are still gains to be made.

00;23;41;13 - 00;24;15;21
Mark Conrad
And let's actually move on to one aspect of the 2011 deal that turned out to irk a number of players, and that was the NFL's method of resolving player grievances, which made the commissioner, in a sense, the judge, jury, and appeals court where at the time, which has been modified by the 2020 agreement. But at the time between 2011 and the 2020 agreement, it was basically the commissioner would be the one to determine various sanction with really no effective appeal.

00;24;15;23 - 00;24;41;19
Mark Conrad
And that really led to the Deflate gate case and other issues of that sort. So did you think in retrospect that that's article 46, infamous article 46 of the CBA, according to the, you know, obviously many players and Tom Brady arguably being one of them. Could that have been handled in retrospect, differently in the negotiation of the 2011 deal?

00;24;41;19 - 00;24;48;29
Mark Conrad
And do you think that had a role in modifying this approach somewhat in the current deal?

00;24;49;01 - 00;25;37;17
George Atallah
The commissioner discipline aspect was always more radioactive in the public eye than it was in the players eyes, and that was something that I couldn't quite figure out how to message appropriately. So, in other words, yes, of course, you mentioned the Deflate gate thing when arguably the greatest player in NFL history is wrapped up in a situation like that where he's accused of something and then gets suspended and doesn't have a due process. I mean, yes, those issues are going to make headlines, but in a collective bargaining context, frankly, the players were not willing to push all their chips to the middle of the table to get that rule changed.

00;25;37;19 - 00;26;05;11
George Atallah
Right? Because if you go back to what the real goal or the philosophy or the objective of a union is, at least the way we approached it was trying to get the most for the most. Why would we ever go into a situation where a small number of players are impacted by a rule in the collective bargaining agreement and give up something to get it, or do something aggressive to get it?

00;26;05;13 - 00;26;28;15
George Atallah
So, I would have this conversation with players all the time. Are you willing to go on strike to get a neutral arbitrator? And then I would just be silent just like this. Are you willing to go on strike for a neutral arbitrator? No. Okay. Are you willing to play an 18th game for neutral arbitrator? No. Okay, so then what are we talking about?

00;26;28;18 - 00;27;05;19
George Atallah
So in the in a collective bargaining context, you have to weigh, I mean, a, you know, almost 400 page document, you have to weigh all of the other articles and all of the other considerations against the one thing that's getting outsized public interest. That's where I think the labor union management context is crucial to have these kinds of conversations, to understand the difference between what the public image might be or the public conversation might be, versus what's really happening in locker rooms and behind the scenes.

00;27;05;22 - 00;27;33;14
Mark Conrad
And I think another point was that Commissioner Goodell had just taken power at the time that you started, in the time the 2011 agreement was being negotiated, not just but he was relatively recent in the job, and his predecessor didn't really utilize that much in terms of that kind of discipline. But then when he came aboard, we had the discipline and personal conduct policy, and it became more acute in the case of several players than in the past.

00;27;33;16 - 00;27;51;02
Mark Conrad
So, one could argue that, hey, this really was not an issue in the past. You know, why bring it up? And your point about you have to give something to get something. And that usually involves money or some other benefit. And that's the nature of give and take and the nature of negotiation.

00;27;51;05 - 00;28;30;27
George Atallah
Yeah. And players were not interested in giving up more than was necessary to get that. And so, guess what the union did. Union used legal strategy and legal leverage to fight back. Right. So, if we're now willing to use player power, well, we have legal power. And so, every single one of those high-profile commissioner discipline cases may not have resulted in a clean victory for the player or players, but it’s certainly challenged the authority in a way that I think ultimately leverage the league to agree to a more neutral arbitration process in 2020.

00;28;30;29 - 00;28;55;17
George Atallah
It just became a distraction, right? I mean, because we're if you're a football fan and you're seeing it now, even like even in the last couple of years, when was the last time we had a long, drawn out commissioner discipline, punishment that, you know, kept headlines for more than two weeks as opposed to like, well, we were going through the Brady thing was years.

00;28;55;19 - 00;29;13;26
George Atallah
The bounty gate issue was years. All those things sort of captured headlines in a way that distracted from what was happening on the field, growing the game to create competition that you saw, players, you know, doing great things and really just growing the business.

00;29;13;29 - 00;29;44;10
Mark Conrad
And to be fair, it involved two federal court decisions. And I'm sure that the costs of each side getting representatives to argue those cases was not insignificant. You know, when you're dealing with that, either the union signed the NFL side because you both had counsel handling it. So, you did fight for the players there. And as many people know that ultimately the courts decided in a split decision that the commissioner indeed had the power to take that action.

00;29;44;10 - 00;30;10;11
Mark Conrad
And it was not arbitrary. So that's where we stand. But moving on. We have our guest to George Atallah, former assistant executive director of external affairs for the NFL Players Association. Let's move on to periods of labor peace, because most of your time there were periods of labor peace. It was just involving the negotiation of the collective bargaining agreements during ‘11 and 2020.

00;30;10;13 - 00;30;19;20
Mark Conrad
So, what kinds of day-to-day activities are a part of the NFLPA? Duties when things are calmer, when you don't have the negotiations?

00;30;19;22 - 00;30;46;00
George Atallah
I would make an argument that it was never really fully calm. I mean, we had the day-to-day operations of a labor union, again, not unlike autoworkers, steelworkers, airline flight attendants, etc. our job was really to hold the NFL accountable to the agreement that we signed. Right. So, are the clubs holding up the agreement to the working conditions for the players?

00;30;46;02 - 00;31;24;19
George Atallah
And if they're not, where does the union step in? Are the clubs holding up their end of the agreement when it relates to health and safety? If they're not? That's where the union had to step in. There are dozens and dozens of sort of what I call Tuesday morning grievance hearings that are not sort of visible to the public eye, where players are either accused of something or they get fined on the field or something happens during the weekend, during the games where they have to sort of stand up and talk about or defend why they got fined and pushed back on the fine schedule.

00;31;24;22 - 00;31;50;20
George Atallah
And the union's always there for them to. We also administer I think this is sort of a fact that's been under publicized the last couple of years. The NFL PA administers former player benefits as well. So, on a daily basis, the union is supposed to be out there advocating for former players, making sure that they're taking advantage of those benefits. So, the work sort of doesn't stop.

00;31;50;22 - 00;31;59;20
George Atallah
It's just not in the context of how the major operations are going to be structured.

00;31;59;23 - 00;32;16;23
Mark Conrad
And you’ve worked under two different executive directors, Demaurice Smith for the majority of your time. And then more recently for a shorter time, Lloyd Howell, who left the position after only two years. What differences did you see in working with these two leaders?

00;32;16;25 - 00;33;09;24
George Atallah
Well, I'll talk about D Smith first and without sounding two like I'm two waxing political here about him, but his leadership style was really about maximizing our leverage. How do we use all the tools in the toolbox to advocate for players, everything from legal leverage to public leverage to partners, sponsors, how we engage on Capitol Hill. I think he really set a course in 2009 that was shaped around maximizing leverage for the players and also engaging with players in a way that wasn't sort of usual for the public to see players taking part in union meetings and how they were talking about the players association publicly.

00;33;09;27 - 00;33;30;10
George Atallah
So, I think that part to me was super important to be part of a leadership team and how D set up our leadership team for each of us to sort of have our areas of expertise, but then align together on using all of those tools to get the most for the players right, including the players being part of that process.

00;33;30;13 - 00;34;08;17
George Atallah
And listen, every organization that goes through transition, it's really difficult. It's really difficult. When D was there for 15 years, signaled that he was ready to move on. That leadership transition was hard. Players decided they wanted to run a process that ultimately resulted in Lloyd Howell. When I was there with Lloyd, I certainly did my best. I know members of our leadership team did their best to get him up to speed on the institutional knowledge and the history, because these organizations are steeped in history and you can't move forward without understanding where you've been.

00;34;08;17 - 00;34;15;29
George Atallah
And that's especially true for labor unions. And, you know, ultimately resulted in what it resulted.

00;34;16;01 - 00;34;39;19
Mark Conrad
And so, let's look at the future. What do you think the future holds for the NFLPA as it may slowly be, preparing for the next round of collective bargaining. And do you think ultimately, they would be optimistically more money at stake, but also potentially more games that may be required to be played in the future in many different venues?

00;34;39;22 - 00;35;05;24
George Atallah
Well, the owners have made no secret that they’ve wanted 18 games and they've wanted 18 games since, candidly, 2008-2009. That was a big thing that they wanted when they locked the players out in 2011 was 18 games, and the players of the 2011 deal prevented them from doing that. In 2020, they got an extra game in exchange for all sorts of other benefits and additional money for the players.

00;35;05;27 - 00;35;34;13
George Atallah
And again, that was the vote that we mentioned earlier. Players were mostly down the middle, but the majority of players voted to approve that deal. Spinning this forward. And you know, again, having–– get a much clearer view sometimes when you're outside of the hamster wheel. But seeing where the league is looking for growth, it's streaming and international and flag.

00;35;34;15 - 00;35;43;15
George Atallah
So, I don't know what the future holds for the PA until they are in a more

00;35;43;17 - 00;35;44;20
Mark Conrad

00;35;44;22 - 00;36;11;02
George Atallah
more sort of clear position as to what they want to get out of this, because it's really about what the players want. Again, the money is phenomenal. You've got an offensive guard who I mentioned earlier, who's got $88 million guaranteed that if he probably walked in your office right now, you would you would not recognize him. So yeah, it's not the quarterbacks that are now making this exorbitant amount of money, which by the way, not exorbitant.

00;36;11;02 - 00;36;22;23
George Atallah
Let me rephrase money that they fully deserve under the terms of this agreement. It's what's the next thing that the players want. And that's the big question they have to answer.

00;36;22;26 - 00;36;36;11
Mark Conrad
In terms of player injury. Was a union involved in any way in negotiating the settlement by former players for a head and other injuries that was consummated a few years ago?

00;36;36;13 - 00;36;41;13
George Atallah
No. Easy. That's an easy answer. No, no, we were not.

00;36;41;15 - 00;36;50;10
Mark Conrad
Does the present collective bargaining agreement address and the Disabilities clause the issue about long term injury and long-term care?

00;36;50;12 - 00;37;17;10
George Atallah
Yeah, it does. And that was something that was actually a legacy from the 2011 deal. Because the disability benefits in 2011 increase the 2020 deal, increase them even further. I believe that it still exists in the current collective bargaining agreement. But there is also a no causation benefit for any player that has, you know, issues after they're done playing as a result of their playing days.

00;37;17;12 - 00;37;35;03
George Atallah
So yeah, those benefits exist. I don't think that they're perfect, and I think that they can be improved upon. But the basis for increasing those benefits to players and specifically former players are definitely written into the to the CBAs.

00;37;35;06 - 00;37;49;00
Mark Conrad
Do you foresee the day that rules may have to be changed to protect players more, given they arguably they’re bigger and stronger. It’ll be maybe 18 games, so there’s more commitment. Do you think that that is a possibility?

00;37;49;03 - 00;38;12;25
George Atallah
I think it's possible if the players want it and if they're willing to do something for it. And I try to simplify a lot of the hypothetical future or potential gains for players, because now it's really about what are they want, what are they willing to do for it, or what are they willing to give up to get it?

00;38;12;28 - 00;38;15;16
George Atallah
It's that simple of a construct.

00;38;15;19 - 00;38;29;08
Mark Conrad
And our final question since leaving the NFLPA, you started your own sports strategy firm called SOMEBODY. What made you decide to create this new firm and what is its purpose?

00;38;29;10 - 00;39;05;07
George Atallah
Well, the purpose is pretty simple. We have a group of friends and partners that have big problems and want to achieve great things. And the firm started from this basic idea that I have helped people in my career, and I can help people in this future career. So how we interact with our friends and partners, you know, in and out of sports who are really grappling with tough issues and maybe we can solve those problems through sports, was really sort of the inception of this advisory.

00;39;05;10 - 00;39;34;03
George Atallah
Again, we're almost two years into this. We're having a lot of fun. We're taking the experiences that we had and strategic communications, overall strategy, messaging, public affairs, litigation support and all the things you would need for these high-profile situations that you and I talked about, just, you know, throughout this interview and how can we apply them to the corporate world both in and out of sports?

00;39;34;05 - 00;39;59;20
Mark Conrad
Unfortunately, our time is up. And on behalf of Fordham University, the School of Business and the Sports Initiative, I want to thank Georgia Atallah for taking the time and discussing the National Football League Players Association and your role in it. I want to thank my producer, Victoria Ilano, for her great work in putting together the Sports Business podcast with Prof. C.

00;39;59;20 - 00;40;11;15
Mark Conrad
And thanks to all of you for listening in for the Sports Business podcast at Fordham Gabelli School of Business. I'm Mark Conrad or Prof C. Have a great day!