Inside the Olympic Movement: Rich Perelman on Money, Politics, and the Road to LA 2028

00;00;07;26 - 00;00;43;00
Mark Conrad
Hello and welcome to the Sports Business Podcast with Prof C., the podcast that explores the world of professional, collegiate, amateur and Olympic sports. I'm Mark Conrad or Prof C, from Fordham University's Gabelli School of Business, where I serve as professor of law and ethics and the director of the Sports Business Initiative. The 2028 Summer Olympic Games are returning to Los Angeles for the first time since 1984.

00;00;43;02 - 00;01;11;28
Mark Conrad
The scale and scope of the event has changed greatly since that time. More sports, more money, more logistical challenges, plus politics, the environment and doping, to name a few. Coupled with world events at the games cannot overlook as much as Olympic leaders try. Back in 2023, Rich Perlman joined me for one of the first podcasts in the series.

00;01;12;00 - 00;01;39;03
Mark Conrad
He spoke about the future of the Olympic movement, and I thought it would be a good idea to welcome Rich back for a chat about the status of the Olympics and international sports generally. Rich Perlman is an expert who has worked in the field for years, and continues his work as the publisher of one of the most authoritative online sources about the Olympics and international sports.

00;01;39;06 - 00;02;21;27
Mark Conrad
His publication is titled The Sports Examiner, an all-in-one online resource for commentary, coverage and results of 40 international sports on the Olympic program. It is found online at thesportsexaminer.com, that's one word. Rich’s involvement in the Olympics goes back to the 1984 Summer Games in Los Angeles, where he served on the organizing committee. Since then, he has used his skills in communications, organization and project management to help other high-profile sports and non-sports projects.

00;02;22;04 - 00;03;02;01
Mark Conrad
Over the last four decades, he helped produce many famous sports events, including the 1999 FIFA Women's World Cup, the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, and 2006, 2009 and 2013 World Baseball Classics. This is in addition to major entertainment and civic events he has handled as well. A native of Los Angeles, Rich graduated from UCLA with a degree in economics and earned his Juris Doctor degree from Loyola of Los Angeles Law School.

00;03;02;03 - 00;03;44;02
Mark Conrad
Before we begin the podcast, here is an update. This podcast was recorded in late June and subsequent to our conversation about paying Olympians, the International Olympic Committee approved a $10,000-per-athlete-per-games stipend for all Olympians going forward. Updating our discussion about Russian athlete participation, since the recording, the IOC recommended that Russian athletes be re-integrated into international competitions, subject to the decision of each International Federation.

00;03;44;04 - 00;03;58;22
Mark Conrad
As I said almost three years ago, very few have the expertise in this important sports area. Like Rich Perlman, and his expertise is needed even more today. Rich, welcome to the podcast.

00;03;58;24 - 00;04;00;26
Rich Perelman
Glad to be here again.

00;04;00;28 - 00;04;09;03
Mark Conrad
To start us off. Could you give a short background on the Olympic Movement, its goals, organization and funding?

00;04;09;05 - 00;04;39;17
Rich Perelman
Well, the International Olympic Committee was formed way back in 1894, primarily at the behest of a Frenchman named Pierre de Coubertin. And he wanted to resurrect the ancient Olympic Games from Greece as a way to increase, sports interest in multiple countries, physical fitness in multiple countries, and to create, if possible, something of a bridge for peace through sports.

00;04;39;19 - 00;05;25;25
Rich Perelman
And I think it has succeeded in many ways well beyond his original idea. But success breeds its own problems. And I think to Coubertin, who, finished as the president of the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in 1925, would have been pretty impressed with what the IOC has become and what the Olympic Games has become, that he resurrected. But I think he also would be very concerned about issues that have come as a result of that success, money, influence, power and a whole series of related issues dealing with increases in technology which have taken place in the 19th century, the 20th century, in the 21st century.

00;05;25;27 - 00;06;01;23
Rich Perelman
The IOC receives money primarily from two sources. They sell television rights, now more loosely known as broadcast rights around the world. They are the owner of the Olympic Games, so they have the exclusive right to sell coverage of the games. And that brings in most of their money. And, they are increasingly doing well with commercial sponsorships, which allow the corporations who are involved to use the Olympic rings, which is a very valuable logo on promotional campaigns that are not just during the games, but across all four years.

00;06;01;26 - 00;06;29;08
Rich Perelman
It is still a private organization headquartered in Lausanne, Switzerland, and it is made up of about 110-114. I keep losing count because they keep adding and subtracting members, but they're right about 110 members from about 90 countries and that is the IOC. They have a professional staff now, of more than 500 who are headquartered in a new building in Lausanne.

00;06;29;10 - 00;06;51;23
Mark Conrad
And after a period when finding host cities was a little bit challenging, it seems that now there's a plethora of candidates for the summer, and even for the Winter games for the next ten years or so. Why do you think that cities and regions want to commit the time and expense to hosting an Olympic Games?

00;06;51;25 - 00;07;15;21
Rich Perelman
Well, the difference came from the, previous IOC President Thomas Bach of Germany. When he took over, the games were at a low point in terms of interest because they were considered to be excessively expensive and excessively difficult to organize, and that the IOC, as an organization, was not living in the real world. They were living in a sports bubble, if you will.

00;07;15;24 - 00;08;03;21
Rich Perelman
Bach, a German, who was a fencing Olympic champion in the team foil event for Germany in 1976, came in and he changed everything very quickly. He was elected in 2013 and by the end of 2014, he had pushed through a long agenda of reforms called Olympic Agenda 2020. And the thing that this did in terms of bidding, that was the most important, is it changed the IOC's view that you should build stadiums, arenas, villages, facilities just for the games and that the games should adapt themselves to whatever facilities were available in the bidding city, country or whatever jurisdiction was being promoted.

00;08;03;24 - 00;08;39;28
Rich Perelman
And this was a 180-degree shift, and the ability to use existing facilities makes the games much, much, much less expensive because most countries have, and cities for that matter, have at least one or more stadiums, have multiple arenas, have all kinds of school facilities and things like that. Universities and these facilities now can be used. And at the most, the Olympics would be responsible for an upgrade or a refurbishment, but not for building from scratch.

00;08;40;01 - 00;09;01;17
Rich Perelman
And so, this has brought the cost down tremendously and makes the games because of that much, much more attractive. This is the main reason why there is significant interest in the games today, this change of make the city work for the games. Now the games have to work within the city or the region.

00;09;01;19 - 00;09;21;11
Mark Conrad
And the recent Winter games were really in a region, Milan Cortina rather than just purely a city. Do you think that that trend is going to continue in the future, as there are more athletes, more logistics and more organizational issues?

00;09;21;13 - 00;09;47;21
Rich Perelman
Well, as usual, Prof C, you're right on top of it because this is the hot issue right now within the IOC. There has been some pushback, especially because of the Milan Cortina experience. It was very difficult for IOC members or fans for National Olympic Committees athletes to get from place to place, because essentially the games were spread out across northern Italy and, northern Italy.

00;09;47;21 - 00;10;26;04
Rich Perelman
If you know anything about the geography is all about mountains, and it's not that easy to get from one place to another. So, there's a pushback on this, and it's not going to stay exactly this way. The IOC right now, as we are recording this, is struggling with the issue of how do they couched the terms of reference for the games so that the games have some core or hub and are not spread out everywhere, like in Milan Cortina, but at the same time they do not want to encourage, if at all possible, the building of new things.

00;10;26;04 - 00;10;53;19
Rich Perelman
They want to keep the lack of building intact. They want as few facilities to be created as possible. Milan Cortina did not build much. They built a village which is going to be used for student housing in Milan afterwards. That's something that the area needs. A private organizer, private real estate developer, built a new arena, barely got finished, but it got finished in that arena is going to be used for many, many decades to come.

00;10;53;22 - 00;11;15;24
Rich Perelman
They built a bobsled and luge facility. It's not clear how well that's going to do, but that was about it. So, they didn't build much and they were able to use their existing facilities. I think the future is going to be some sort of a compromise between being relatively centralized and being spread out to take advantage of facilities.

00;11;15;24 - 00;11;26;21
Rich Perelman
I think the question is not going to be, is there going to be a spread-out games? The answer is yes. The question is how spread out. Italy, I think for the IOC was a little too much.

00;11;26;24 - 00;11;58;25
Mark Conrad
With 2030 and 2034. With this in mind, it seems that the 2034 winner in Salt Lake City seems to have the ideal situation. It hosted in 2002. The facilities are there. It's one general area. I wonder why Salt Lake was not awarded 2030? Because it doesn't seem that the 2030 bid in the Alps is as clearly defined. What do you think the reason was for the delay for Salt Lake in 34?

00;11;58;27 - 00;12;29;14
Rich Perelman
I know the reason. The reason is money. If you look at the calendar, 2030 games, which, Salt Lake City clearly co-organized, would come only two years after the LA 2028 games. And that would be a very, very difficult push from a commercial standpoint for Salt Lake City, organizing committee. Now they call themselves Utah 2034, but for the organizing committee to be able to get the kind of commercial sponsorship support that it wants and needs in order to put on the games.

00;12;29;16 - 00;12;45;19
Rich Perelman
So, the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee and the Salt Lake City organizers, now Utah 2034 organizers were very clear that from a commercial standpoint, it is far, far better to have the games in 2034 than in 2030.

00;12;45;21 - 00;12;57;06
Mark Conrad
It was the status of the bid for 2030. It just based on reports, it seems to be not quite as clear of where things are going to be, but, we haven't really read much about it.

00;12;57;08 - 00;13;32;29
Rich Perelman
Well, they're getting there. The French were on a short leash. The IOC likes the French idea for 2030 because they are hiring slowly. A number of people and, companies that were involved in the Paris 2024 Summer games, which went off very, very well. So, I think the idea that you could take some of that Paris 2024 experience and expertise and then move it over to 2030 for the Winter games, was a significant plus for the IOC to have the Games in France, in the French Alps rather than going to some other country.

00;13;33;01 - 00;13;59;25
Mark Conrad
And since you bring up the 2024 Paris Olympics, it has been regarded as a success both athletically, artistically and economically. The Milan and Cortina games were considered generally successful in terms of the competition, but apparently did not break even, and in fact we had some reports of financial cost from that those games. Do you think that Los Angeles can repeat the successes of Paris?

00;13;59;27 - 00;14;23;27
Rich Perelman
Well, I think it's an open question. The organizing committee, has made significant progress. They are hiring very, very rapidly. For the first six years or so, they were well behind the same, progress as Paris. But in 2024, they hired Reynolds Hoover, a retired three-star U.S. Army general, to take over the actual organization of the games.

00;14;23;27 - 00;14;45;28
Rich Perelman
As chief executive, he has gotten the hiring train rolling and has hired some people who have a lot of experience, not necessarily in Olympic Games but in, sports, and have done some important things. And we'll see how they turn out. On the commercial side, they appear to be in a good position to, reach their $2.5 billion target for commercial sponsorship.

00;14;45;28 - 00;15;08;10
Rich Perelman
That is not the most money that's ever been raised. Tokyo 2020 raised 3.3 billion, and that's the record. But the 2.5 billion, domestic sponsorship target was considered to be pretty high. And it looks like they're going to get there. The first run through on the ticketing said that they sold 4 million tickets. That's about a third of what they need to sell.

00;15;08;10 - 00;15;36;17
Rich Perelman
That's good. It's very good. They're starting the volunteer program. So, are the building blocks starting to come together? Is the foundation starting to come together? I would say yes. There are many, many, many issues that need to be settled. And one of them is even if the L.A. 28 organizers are able to meet their $7.2 billion revenue budget, is that going to be sufficient to organize the games?

00;15;36;19 - 00;15;50;22
Rich Perelman
And that's not clear. That's not clear. And I don't think it's clear to the L.A. 28 organizers, if they're being honest about it. So, they're getting there and they know they have to have a surplus. I think they can get there. But we don't know yet.

00;15;50;25 - 00;16;20;00
Mark Conrad
And on the preparations, which you just answered in your last question, the cities certainly had its challenges in the last year. The fires had damaged certain areas of the city, but also apparently delays in public transportation construction. And so, at the point of the physical preparations at this point, are they on schedule for the most part and on budget, or do you think that, say, the public transportation issue could be a serious impediment?

00;16;20;02 - 00;16;41;29
Rich Perelman
Well, I think there's a couple of things that have to be kept in mind. First of all, we're in 2026. We're not in 2028. The competition venues are all built or will be temporary. This is remarkable. Even in the 1984 games, we had to build three facilities, right? We had to build the cycling velodrome, we had to build swimming pool, we had to build a shooting facility.

00;16;42;01 - 00;17;08;20
Rich Perelman
Velodrome was, demolished in order to make way for a very large sports multi-sport complex, which is going to be used in 2028. Swimming pool at SC is still there. The shooting range in Chino is still there. They both operate every day, so there are no new venues that are being built. This is great from the standpoint of guaranteeing that the games will go on and the competitions will be successful.

00;17;08;23 - 00;17;47;20
Rich Perelman
The questions are primarily not with the organizing committee building things or the government building things. The questions right now that are being asked are primarily on the issues of who is going to pay for security, because the federal government has said we will pay some and they have allocated $1 billion to security. But that is insufficient for the Los Angeles Police Department and a whole series of other law enforcement agencies who are expected to spend maybe double that much to secure the games.

00;17;47;22 - 00;18;22;29
Rich Perelman
On the transportation side, the 2028 bid did not assume any new construction in transportation. It assumed the existing bus and subway rail systems and, light rail systems that were in place in 2017 would be available in 2028. And they will. Los Angeles, which has had a hard time with public transportation ever since. The old red line system, which I'm so old, I actually remember seeing it, I never rode on it, but I remember seeing it was destroyed in the night and the, early 1960s.

00;18;23;02 - 00;18;56;02
Rich Perelman
It essentially, went away and in favor of busses. So that's being built. There is the transportation infrastructure is being rebuilt, but the Metropolitan Transportation Agency has said that it needed $3.2 billion from the federal government. The federal government said no. Then they said they needed $2 billion from the federal government. Federal government has said no. But there is in the current budget bill, which has yet to be approved, 875 million for transportation for 2028.

00;18;56;09 - 00;19;25;01
Rich Perelman
So, it's not a smooth path and it's a little bit discombobulated, but it's getting there. It's getting there. And I think what's important for people to remember is it doesn't really matter how bumpy the road is when you get to the games, as long as the games come off well, because once the games are over, when we get to, you know, September 1st of 2028, there will be no games.

00;19;25;03 - 00;19;49;15
Rich Perelman
There'll be a memory, good, bad or otherwise. And so that's what's important is what happens in 2028 and not all the drama in 2026. But right now, the issue is money for security, money for transportation. And those are public agencies, security and transportation that have to step up. The organizing committee is organizing and we'll see how they do.

00;19;49;15 - 00;19;52;02
Rich Perelman
No one knows at this point.

00;19;52;04 - 00;20;10;28
Mark Conrad
Casey Wasserman is the head of the LA organizing committee. And there was pressure, for him to resign, due to the discovery of some emails between him and Jeffrey Epstein. He has not resigned. Do you think he has weathered the storm?

00;20;11;00 - 00;20;39;12
Rich Perelman
I would say at the present time when this is being recorded, Casey feels and I know Casey a little bit not well, but I know him. I think he feels that he is through this and has continued his role as the unpaid volunteer chair of the organizing committees board of directors. He is not the chief executive. Reynold Hoover, the retired three-star U.S. general, U.S. Army general, who I spoke about earlier, is the chief executive

00;20;39;12 - 00;21;11;18
Rich Perelman
and the organizing committee's efforts and efficiencies have taken off, to a much higher level under his direction. Wasserman is there. I think he expects to be there. I don't think he's concerned anymore about these, issues. But I would, tell you that the real question about Wasserman and about Hoover and all the rest really has to do with whether the organizing committee is doing a competent job, and no one knows that yet.

00;21;11;19 - 00;21;20;02
Rich Perelman
The money is coming in, but no one knows if they are a good organizing committee or a bad organizing committee, because they haven't done anything in the public eye yet.

00;21;20;05 - 00;21;31;06
Mark Conrad
So, Rich you are very familiar with the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles. How much bigger are these upcoming games than what you found in 1984?

00;21;31;08 - 00;22;06;14
Rich Perelman
Well, the sheer size of the games is significantly bigger. We had 23 sports, including two demonstration sports. Demonstration sports have gone away now, and we had a little over 7000 athletes who actually came to the games. It was pretty big. It was the biggest games, at its time. The games now have ballooned up to 36 sports, 31 sports that were approved by the International Olympic Committee, five that were requested by the LA 28 organizers.

00;22;06;14 - 00;22;37;11
Rich Perelman
And the estimate is that there's going to be something on the order of 11,200 athletes at the games, so it's significantly bigger. The organizing effort that we undertook in 1984 was different, in that we pursued a completely new set of principles in the way that the games were organized. We did the games with completely private financing, completely private, that had never been tried before.

00;22;37;13 - 00;23;12;21
Rich Perelman
We did the games with volunteers that had never been tried before, and we had a whole series of other new concepts that we brought into the games. Once. One example I like to cite if the accreditation badges, which are used for all international events now that specify not only your name, your function, but where you can go and how you can go there, that was invented by the LA Olympic Organizing Committee had never been used, nothing like it had ever been used before, and is now the standard absolutely everywhere for absolutely every sporting event on the planet.

00;23;12;21 - 00;23;34;14
Rich Perelman
And that's something, as the editor in chief of the official report in 84, I like to point that out as one of the technical things that we did. No one talks about it, no one thinks about it. But it is a direct legacy of the 1984 games. The legacy of 2028 is already in hand because the IOC has said we're not having 36 sports anymore.

00;23;34;20 - 00;24;08;19
Rich Perelman
That is not going to happen. And so, there is a considerable pushback right now against what is considered to be the gigantism of the LA 28 organizing concept, to have the most sports ever, the most events ever. They won’t have the most athletes ever, but it'll be very close. So that's something that I think is different. We tried to make the games compact, small, efficient, as inexpensive as possible, using existing venues and things like that.

00;24;08;19 - 00;24;34;12
Rich Perelman
That was a new concept at the time. Only 28 has taken part of our legacy, which is to use existing facilities, but they have made the games very large and that's why the question is raised. Okay, they may make their revenue budget, but will that be enough to put on the games? And that's an open question because LA 28 has not shared any details and they have not put on any events in the public.

00;24;34;14 - 00;24;40;16
Rich Perelman
So, we don't know how good or bad an organized committee they are. They are still in formation

00;24;40;19 - 00;25;09;23
Mark Conrad
right now. The recent World Cup soccer tournament going on, and FIFA, the body that controls soccer, has been criticized, among other things, for certain demands on its host cities and stadiums, including sponsorship omissions. So, the names of the stadiums cannot be officially used and replaced with very generic terms. So, the naming rights partners of these stadiums have really lost millions of dollars in exposure.

00;25;09;25 - 00;25;14;26
Mark Conrad
Does the IOC handle things differently regarding name sponsorships?

00;25;14;28 - 00;25;38;17
Rich Perelman
Well, yes and no. FIFA and the World Cup is a— even though it's compared many times to the Olympic Games, it's a totally different event and really should not be talked about in terms of complexity. In the same time that the Olympic Games, the Olympic Games in 28 is going to be 36 sports, 36, and there's going to be something on the order of 50 venues.

00;25;38;17 - 00;25;59;01
Rich Perelman
If you include all of the one off in the small fry, like the marathons and the walks and things like that. The World Cup is one event that, even in its expanded format, is one sport. It takes place in 16 sites, none of which have more than eight events, none of which are more than one a day.

00;25;59;04 - 00;26;30;27
Rich Perelman
And it's done, you know, over a very long period of 39 days now. So, it's a different kind of event, very large, very interesting, but it's a different kind of event. In terms of the way the sponsorships work. The IOC is in a parallel. They're not the same. So, you would see in the case of Los Angeles, the main stadium, the Olympic Stadium in 2028 is going to be the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, which does not have a corporate name attached to it.

00;26;31;00 - 00;26;59;28
Rich Perelman
So, it will be called the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Now, the opening ceremony will take place in SoFi Stadium, which is named for the mortgage company SoFi. And that is a commercial deal, that was struck between, Kroenke Sports, which is the event, sorry, the stadium owner and SoFi. Now, the Olympics will also not allow SoFi Stadium to be named that way because SoFi is not an Olympic sponsor.

00;27;00;03 - 00;27;34;06
Rich Perelman
Now, one of the things that the LA 28 organizers and I think Wasserman has to get credit for this, has brought in, is the idea on a pilot basis that a LA 28 sponsor, not necessarily IOC sponsor, but a LA 28 sponsor can come in and if they have naming rights, they can use them. So as an example, the Honda Center, which is an arena where the, ducks play in the NHL, the Honda Center, Honda is in LA 28 sponsor.

00;27;34;06 - 00;27;56;17
Rich Perelman
And so that venue will be called during the 2028 games, the Honda Center. And there is Intuit, which is a software company, right, QuickBooks and so on. And they are the sponsor of the Intuit Dome in Inglewood, which is where the Clippers of the NBA play. They’re a LA 28 sponsors so that venue will be called the Intuit Dome.

00;27;56;23 - 00;28;18;04
Rich Perelman
SoFi is not a sponsor of LA 28 or the International Olympic Committee. So, SoFi Stadium will end up being called the Inglewood Stadium or the Los Angeles Stadium, or some generic, name like that, so they won't be able to use it. So, it's kind of a mix. It's not exactly the way FIFA does it. It's a little more liberal.

00;28;18;06 - 00;28;21;17
Rich Perelman
But the same concept generally applies.

00;28;21;19 - 00;28;38;14
Mark Conrad
By the opening of the Los Angeles games. President Trump will be in his last year of office. What effect, if any, do you think that the president's policies could have on fan attendance and political actions from athletes, notably US athletes?

00;28;38;16 - 00;29;02;05
Rich Perelman
Well, I think in terms of attendance, I don't think there will be any impact of Trump being in the White House or not being in the White House. I think it doesn't matter. One of the things that we have seen very clearly during the FIFA World Cup is that the stadiums are full, the prices are outrageous. No one doubts this.

00;29;02;05 - 00;29;37;22
Rich Perelman
Even FIFA acknowledges that they have sold their tickets essentially based on what the resale market would be. So, the price are absolutely outrageous, but you're dealing with a spectacle. You're dealing with a once in a lifetime experience for most people. And so, with the World Cup and I— and you're seeing this already with the Olympics, people understand that they are going to pay an outrageously high price related to going to these events, which for the vast majority of people who will attend, is a once in a lifetime experience.

00;29;37;24 - 00;30;07;04
Rich Perelman
They won't go to another Olympics; they probably won't go to another World Cup. They'll see the rest of them on TV. Here's a chance for them to be involved in person in these exceptional events that they can say they can bring their children, they can tell their children, hey, you know, I was there when Katie Ledecky set a world record in the 1500-meter swim or, Mondo Duplantis pole vaulted 21ft or whatever it is.

00;30;07;06 - 00;30;26;08
Rich Perelman
So, I don't think the attendance is going to be an issue at all. The World Cup has essentially sold out, more or less. And that's a great thing for FIFA. The Olympics. I don't know if it'll sell out, but they're going to sell. I mean, I probably 10 million plus tickets. So, lots and lots of people are going to attend.

00;30;26;11 - 00;30;49;21
Rich Perelman
So, I don't think the issue of Trump is, is going to be an issue. The question of whether people in foreign countries will be able to get in, even if they purchase tickets. This is a question of these access, these access as FIFA has rather embarrassingly, embarrassingly found out is not something that FIFA or the IOC for that matter, has anything to say.

00;30;49;23 - 00;31;24;20
Rich Perelman
It's up to the host country. And so, if there is a ticket buyer in, Iran for the 28 games and we're still in a fight with Iran and Iranians can't come in, that ticket buyer is going to be in trouble and they're not going to be able to get in. So that's something that will impact, some people, some relatively small number of people on the margins In terms of athletes and US athletes doing what they do, I think Trump himself is not going to be an issue, because we'll already be well into the 2028 political campaigns.

00;31;24;20 - 00;31;47;01
Rich Perelman
The primaries will mostly be over. And so, the question will be, you know, who will be the candidate in 2028? If I remember my calendar correctly, the Democrats will have had their convention probably beforehand or just after, they will come and then the Republicans are later, because they're the party that's currently, holds the presidency.

00;31;47;09 - 00;32;08;22
Rich Perelman
So, I don't know that it's going to necessarily be a, a significant issue relative to Trump himself. There may be specific issues that people are upset about. I don't think we know what those are yet. But there is a lot of performative political activity that's taking place throughout the country. Some of it local, some of it national.

00;32;08;28 - 00;32;20;21
Rich Perelman
And I think that will be true in Los Angeles in 2028. But I think we don't know what that, situation is going to be at two years is an eternity in politics.

00;32;20;23 - 00;32;34;03
Mark Conrad
Well, back to the IOC. The IOC has a new president, Kirsty Coventry, a former Olympic swimmer, has her approach differed from that of her predecessor? And do you think thus far her tenure has gone well?

00;32;34;06 - 00;32;59;19
Rich Perelman
Well, Coventry is an interesting, personality. She was a government minister, for youth and arts in Zimbabwe and went from being extremely popular for some time to being incredibly unpopular because she installed some discipline on the national football, meaning soccer team there, which is a big deal in Zimbabwe. She has definitely differed from the Thomas Bach approach.

00;32;59;19 - 00;33;24;24
Rich Perelman
She is more friendly, more informal, less buttoned down. You rarely saw Bach without a coat and a tie in business occasions and Coventry— Bach was also an athlete, by the way, fencer. But, Coventry, who spent most of her athletic career in a swimsuit, is more informal and first female president.

00;33;24;24 - 00;33;50;16
Rich Perelman
And then she has a different feeling about her different presence. But, she has very quickly, coming up on one year in the presidency, come up against a number of issues. She's in the middle of this, Russian business and Belarus business. The IOC, under her leadership, has readmitted or recommended readmitted Belarus and everything. This makes the Ukrainians very upset, of course.

00;33;50;16 - 00;34;20;02
Rich Perelman
And a number of the Ukrainian neighbors. In terms of Russia, she led a recommendation to allow Russian youth and junior athletes to compete with flag and anthem, which again, has driven the Ukrainians crazy. But she's held the line on, Russian senior athletes. We'll see where that goes. The Russians are very upset with her. So, Bach used to say, if the West is upset with me and the Russians are upset with me, then I must be doing it right, because I'm somewhere in the middle.

00;34;20;05 - 00;34;45;26
Rich Perelman
She has gotten herself into a hornet's nest, and I think it's the right time for this discussion about paying athletes. She told an interviewer in New Zealand that she is not in favor of athletes being paid. Now, having spent 40 plus years in the Olympic movement and having covered the IOC very closely for ten years now, I knew that what she was saying was prize money.

00;34;46;02 - 00;35;13;24
Rich Perelman
She's not against— She is against prize money. She is not against athletes being paid per se. She said in that interview, “Hey, I was an Olympic scholarship holder through Olympic Solidarity”, which is an IOC funded program. And by the way, $650 million over four years in Olympic solidarity. That's how big the budget is in Olympic solidarity. And they pay more than 2000 athletes now these Olympic scholarships.

00;35;13;24 - 00;35;32;15
Rich Perelman
So, the IOC does pay athletes. It's somewhere in the vicinity of 2000 and over the last quadrennial and over the last year, I think it was 21 million. So, it's a lot of money, but it's not anything close to what athletes feel they should be paid. And this is an ongoing issue that she is right in the middle of.

00;35;32;17 - 00;36;06;28
Rich Perelman
And the question, I think the IOC is not going to go over to prize money. I think that's not going to happen. I think the idea is, if you look back to ancient Greece, the athletes were sent to the Olympic Games in Olympia by their city states, and they were funded by their city states. And if they won something, they were given money, bonuses, land, whatever by their city states and not by this very small organization in Olympia which put on the games, which is analogous in a small way to the IOC.

00;36;07;04 - 00;36;31;03
Rich Perelman
However, the question now is, and I'm happy to say the sports examiner has been out in front on this for more than a year, that athletes could get a stipend or an honorarium from the IOC for participating in the Olympic Games. And this is, I think, a real possibility, maybe not for 2028, but if not for 2028 or for 2032.

00;36;31;04 - 00;36;36;28
Rich Perelman
This is an idea which I think has some legs in that she would be in the middle of one way or the other.

00;36;37;00 - 00;37;00;06
Mark Conrad
Let's talk about the position on transgender athletes. Most of the international organizations and the Olympic movement have effectively come up with a situation to make it difficult, if not impossible, for transgender women to compete. What do you think the reaction has been to that policy among the various constituencies in the Olympic movement?

00;37;00;08 - 00;37;40;25
Rich Perelman
Well, within the Olympic movement, I think there is a generalized not unanimous by any stretch, but there's a generalized, feeling that if you read the research, which has been primarily commissioned by World Athletics, although there are some others, what you see is that there is, reasonably effective scientific research that shows that men who transgender their way into the female category have hereditary traits once they get through puberty, that give them a very substantial physical advantage, at least the potential for a physical advantage over biological females.

00;37;40;27 - 00;38;08;02
Rich Perelman
And so, as a matter of physiology, the view is that women, biological women, should not compete against men who have gone through puberty. Right. There is a faction that says that it should never be done, that men are born with, you know, certain inert traits that that would make them always, faster, stronger and so on against women. This is an issue which is political and cultural as well as physical.

00;38;08;04 - 00;38;27;12
Rich Perelman
And so, there is a very vociferous opposition to this idea from the transgender community and those who support the transgender community. But I think in terms of sports at the elite level, I think you're going to see a general agreement on a ban of transgender women in elite competitions.

00;38;27;15 - 00;38;33;15
Mark Conrad
Do you see any other changes or reforms in the Olympic movement in the next ten years?

00;38;33;17 - 00;39;12;25
Rich Perelman
Well, he got a pretty full plate as it is. I think one of the issues which is really lurking just underneath the surface. And, IOC President Coventry is on top of this to her credit. The switch, which has happened in the current generation between broadcast and cable television and watching long form sporting events of 2 or 3 hours and just watching highlights on TikTok or YouTube and following on social media, potentially cuts out the largest generator of Olympic Games revenue.

00;39;12;27 - 00;39;39;24
Rich Perelman
And it's a serious long term— and what I say about long-term ten years, it's a serious, long-term threat to the finances of not just the International Olympic Committee, but all of the International Federations, the National Olympic Committees, everybody involved. Television and the ability to market to a mass audience has always been the bedrock of Olympic marketing.

00;39;39;26 - 00;40;21;19
Rich Perelman
Since television rights began to be commercially sold in 1960. And if this goes away or is significantly depreciated, that is going to send everybody back to the poorhouse. Everybody, the big federations and the small ones. FIFA is worried about this. The IOC is worried about this and the question of how you monetize the games as linear, so-called linear television continues to decline, especially in the United States, is a serious, serious, serious issue which people in the trade know about, worry about, obsess about, and at the same time they're trying to put the games on.

00;40;21;19 - 00;40;40;14
Rich Perelman
Now, NBC has bought rights through 2036, so for the next ten years, we're good in terms of the US and I think where the US goes, Europe will go. So generally, the IOC finances are going to be okay through 2036. Beyond that, I think all bets are off.

00;40;40;16 - 00;41;07;27
Mark Conrad
That's a very good point, and something that has not received as much attention as it should have, just in general, the television watching, the media, watching habits of those under 30 have been significantly changed. You write and publish one of the very few journals, online and offline, devoted to the Olympics and international sport. For those interested, the website is thesportsexaminer.com.

00;41;07;29 - 00;41;21;11
Mark Conrad
It is free of charge, although voluntary contributions are accepted. My question is why do you think there is such little interest in international sports from the sports media in the United States?

00;41;21;14 - 00;41;43;20
Rich Perelman
Well, in terms of the sports media in the United States, my question is what sports media? Newspapers have essentially imploded for the most part, and they are continuing to implode. A number of them have gone, completely out of print and are now only online. And once you're only online, then you're in the same position as every other online publisher like me.

00;41;43;22 - 00;42;23;18
Rich Perelman
My audience is small. It's a very niche audience. I think the whole question of what people consume, what they're interested in, is very much driven today by the social media cycle and also by the plethora of platforms. I read a long time ago when I was writing about cigars, of all things, which, by the way, I had a larger audience on a consistent basis for my blog on cigars than I do with the Sports Examiner, which is incredible when you think about it, because there are tiny, tiny number of premium cigar smokers in the United States or worldwide for that matter, compared to the Olympics.

00;42;23;18 - 00;43;03;00
Rich Perelman
But the Olympics per se is. And I think we're seeing this with the FIFA World Cup. It's not a sports competition per se. It is a spectacle. It is an event. It is an aggregation of audience for a specific purpose over a specific time. And people get great emotional and intellectual satisfaction out of seeing their country because the Olympic Games, much as people say, well, you know, it's just about individuals. The Olympic Games, if you took out all the national finery and all the national emblems, I think Interest would go down by half or more.

00;43;03;03 - 00;43;33;01
Rich Perelman
People want to see their country. They want to see their athletes, their citizens doing well. The waving the flag, hearing their anthem, seeing them perform. That's exactly what's happening with the FIFA World Cup, which will draw a much larger audience than any of the national, the individual national club soccer programs. So, I think it's a once every two years, winter and summer if you just go to summer, but once every four years phenomenon.

00;43;33;04 - 00;44;00;24
Rich Perelman
And I think the, the what I do is trying to create a bridge between the four years or the two years, depending if you're interested in in winter sports. And I would say that it has been marginally successful, but my experience very clearly indicates that there is a very limited interest in the politics and the business of things which are not going on year after year 24/7.

00;44;00;26 - 00;44;26;11
Rich Perelman
So, there are dozens of websites about Major League Baseball, about the NBA, about the NHL, about the National Football League now, about, Major League Soccer and the National Women's Soccer League. But the Olympics, it's something that comes up and then it leaves and there is a relatively limited audience, which I cater to, in the US and there's not that many sites internationally.

00;44;26;13 - 00;44;44;18
Rich Perelman
There's two French sites, there's 2 or 3 other English language sites that are overseas. And they don't do that much either. So, it's not as if I'm doing a great job or a terrible job. I'm kind of in there with everybody else. And I think it's unfortunate from my standpoint, but I understand it. I'm ten years in on this.

00;44;44;18 - 00;45;14;02
Rich Perelman
I don't know how much longer I'll go, but I'm ten years in, and I understand it. And it's something which the audience that, reads my site, and then reads these others is very happy that I'm out here doing this, Lone Ranger bit, but it has a very limited audience. And then when you get close to the games, everybody else gets in, gets into it, and then, you know, my relative importance goes down because everybody is covering the games and what's happening on the field.

00;45;14;04 - 00;45;50;19
Mark Conrad
Well, I would say the sports examiner for me is an invaluable resource. I look at it most days. You've done an incredible job covering a very difficult, broad and intricate area of sports. And at that point, unfortunately, our time is up, even though we could probably talk another hour. But on behalf of Fordham University, the Gabelli School of Business and the Gabelli Sports Initiative, I want to thank Rich Perlman for taking the time and discussing the Olympics and international sports in this very interesting time.

00;45;50;21 - 00;46;13;19
Mark Conrad
Rich, it's been a great pleasure. I also want to thank my producer, Victoria Ilano, for her great work in putting the Sports Business Podcast with Prof. C together. And thanks to all of you for listening in for the Sports Business podcast at Fordham's Gabelli School of Business. I'm Mark Conrad or Prof. C. Have a great day.