Episode 5 - Women & Tech Series: A Woman's Journey in Tech

00;00;17;15 - 00;00;33;25
Jie Ren
Hello Everyone. Welcome to my podcast, “When Tech Meets Ed.” This is Prof. Jie Ren. Today, I’m so happy to have my good friend, Dr. Yilu Zhou, to join us to share her personal journey as a woman in tech. So, Yilu, thank you so much for coming to join us.

00;00;34;00 - 00;00;35;17
Yilu Zhou
Thank you for having me.

00;00;35;19 - 00;00;40;21
Jie Ren
So, I'm so looking forward to hearing your story. So, could you please introduce yourself to our audience?

00;00;40;28 - 00;01;10;17
Yilu Zhou
Sure. I’m Yilu Zhou. I’ve been at Fordham for 13 years. So I joined 2013 as an associate professor in the area of Information Technology & Operations, and I currently also serve as the Director of MSAIB, our new AI in Business program. Before coming to Fordham, I was a professor at George Washington University, and I did my PHD from U[niversity] of Arizona.

00;01;10;20 - 00;01;41;03
Yilu Zhou
I worked in a lab called “Artificial Intelligence Lab,” when AI was not such a popular word, but I'm glad I got to work on a lot of interesting projects. And, I'm just, you know just trying to go back to before Arizona I came from Shanghai, China. I did my undergraduate in Shanghai Jiao Tong University. I was a computer science major. And that's my brief story in the introduction.

00;01;41;05 - 00;01;54;06
Jie Ren
Yeah. So, we definitely will, you know, touch upon, what, elaborate some parts of your personal journey. So, my very first question to you is that what first drew you to tech?

00;01;54;09 - 00;02;26;28
Yilu Zhou
That's a good question. I actually never thought about it, in depth. When I was a middle school student, I was in the all girls middle school in an all girls high school. I spent seven years there, and I always felt like I was a STEM kid. So at the time, STEM was not a word, but I was good at physics, I was good at math, and I like, I especially like physics, and I like doing physics experiment.

00;02;27;01 - 00;03;07;02
Yilu Zhou
And I even won, like a gold award or physics experiment in, in the entire Shanghai meeting. [Jie Ren: That’s great.] Yeah. I think, the other people who got the gold award were all male students. So my teacher was really happy. And that made me think I am probably more suitable for STEM majors. So when I was deciding on my college majors; So, first of all, I think, you know, I have to do, Jiao Tong University, because as a kid in Shanghai, usually we like to go for either Jiao Tong University, which is a more, technology driven, you know, engineering driven school.

00;03;07;02 - 00;03;35;09
Yilu Zhou
And then the other one is Fudan University, which has great majors in news, journalism and, you know, social science and also mathematics. So I didn't, have much questioning. I thought, you know, I have to choose something that is very engineer driven, very, technical. And at the time, computer science was, one of the majors that has the highest entrance requirement for that because we all take the entrance exam, and there are,

00;03;35;10 - 00;04;03;10
Yilu Zhou
so you can see what, what score is required from last year. So I was like, it must be a good major if everybody wants it. And then the other thing is, I, we also started programing very early. I was in an all girls middle school, and we were lucky that we had donations from Apple for those Apple computer. So this was in 19, 1990 something, 1993 ish.

00;04;03;12 - 00;04;21;05
Yilu Zhou
And then later we also have these 2, I believe it was 286 or 386 machines, which sort of early. And the computer lab was the only classroom in the school that has air conditioning.

00;04;21;08 - 00;04;22;16
Jie Ren
Did you just spend a lot of time there?

00;04;22;18 - 00;04;51;18
Yilu Zhou
So I, you know, the only classroom with air conditioning. So, so I just say, you know, after school, that's where I'm going to stay. And, we had you know, some very simple programing classes. I think it was either Basic or Pascal. But I was in sort of an accelerated class. So we, you know, I think we were able to have those extra classes, which is very fortunate.

00;04;51;20 - 00;05;15;09
Yilu Zhou
And then my dad also, because, you know, growing up, we had a lot of spare time to kill. So he decided to put me into a summer school. And I was doing drawing in the afternoon. Then in the morning, there's this computer science, class, and they basically were doing, like, input of Chinese characters, and they did a little bit of Fox Pro and all that.

00;05;15;16 - 00;05;48;02
Yilu Zhou
So I joined that as well, and I did very well. I think mainly because there were not a lot of people interested in it, in that particular class. So there are, you know, being the all girls school, being good at physics at the time, and taking all these computer courses and getting great scores in, which made me believe that I have to go for an engineering major. And, you know, computer science just surfaced.

00;05;48;04 - 00;05;52;14
Yilu Zhou
I think that's how I get into the computer science journey.

00;05;52;17 - 00;06;17;28
Jie Ren
Yeah, that sounds like a wonderful, wonderful journey. Very much driven. internally, right? Like you are, you are good at physics. And maybe that you started, you know, maybe as a passion, you know, internally or something. And then your, your teacher nag you a little bit. And also your father has, kind of prepare you for the extra curricular, you know, like training along this line and in kind of like a very natural, very natural process.

00;06;18;05 - 00;06;44;11
Yilu Zhou
To me it is. But I want to say my parents didn't think I should take computer science as a major. They think I should take, like, international business or finance as major, because they have the very typical thought, you know, girls should major in less technical majors and, you know, do international business because most of my classmates are doing international business.

00;06;44;13 - 00;07;05;11
Yilu Zhou
It's also one of the highest, score, for the entrance exam. But then I was like, I have, an advantage in physics and, or math at the at the time, I feel like my, my math was pretty good. So I decided to go for a different route to major in computer science.

00;07;05;11 - 00;07;06;01
Jie Ren
Yes.

00;07;06;03 - 00;07;07;09
Yilu Zhou

00;07;07;11 - 00;07;29;03
Jie Ren
So, I feel exactly the same struggle. I don't know if I can use the “struggle”, this word to describe that. You know, that experience. Growing up, like, probably you heard this as well, like, I often hear this saying that people say, “Well girls are not fit for math or tech” or maybe just pick a different major, different journey, right?

00;07;29;06 - 00;07;55;03
Jie Ren
Such as international business. Right? So part of that to me is that it's not a good feeling, right? So it's like you feel, like, underestimated. I struggle with that as well, but later I, I chose a major, but not as technical as the one that you chose. I chose, like, e-commerce. Kind of like a, like a blending of the two business and also like, computer science flavor in it.

00;07;55;09 - 00;07;58;10
Jie Ren
Have you had any of these struggles?

00;07;58;12 - 00;08;33;15
Yilu Zhou
Yeah. I think being in the all girls school really helped because I think you naturally get more encouragement to do STEM work. And you also feel that you are actually good at, you know, STEM or even programing. I feel like I was good at program but we’re doing very, very basic programing, like just couple of lines. But I had that feeling when I started my college in computer science, because I went from all girls to almost all boys.

00;08;33;17 - 00;08;35;09
Jie Ren
What is the ratio?

00;08;35;11 - 00;08;59;04
Yilu Zhou
About 10 to 1. So we have over 100 students. And we had, 11 girls. So they, I mean, the boys treat us nice. They always leave the first row of seats to us. So, and they have to fight for the seats in the front. And we can go there like, one minute before the start of the class and still take the first row.

00;08;59;04 - 00;09;33;06
Yilu Zhou
But sometimes I choose to take the last row. But I think that's when, first of all, Jiao Tong University is a very good school. So you start to see all these, you know, genius, talented kids from all over China. And a lot of them have been seriously programing things, primary school. And then I start to see some of my very old friends, like, I, I was seeing these, you know, mathematical sort of Olympiad school.

00;09;33;08 - 00;10;03;03
Yilu Zhou
I mean, I wasn't that good with it. So I didn’t continue. But then I start to see the genius that I recognized from childhood being in the same class with me or same grade with me. And even, so we have four girls in, one dorm. So the other girls in my dormitory, they, you know, they have the gold award of mathematics, Olympiad or something.

00;10;03;06 - 00;10;31;09
Yilu Zhou
So that's when I start to realize just being a little bit ahead of people in middle school means nothing. And in Jiao Tong, they're very hands on. They start to build networks within the dorm because we didn't have internet at the time. We didn't even have telephone. So the entire building has just one telephone that you have to go to the first floor. You know, use a telephone card to call your parents.

00;10;31;12 - 00;11;02;15
Yilu Zhou
So we had nothing. So some of my classmates say, you know, they just decide to apply for, at the time called a DSL, which is already the more advanced network internet subscription. But they don't want to pay for the entire cost. So they actually wired they, you know, did all the networking, in the dormitory so that every dorm has access and they are able to calculate the cost, and, you know, distribute the bills.

00;11;02;17 - 00;11;03;25
Yilu Zhou
So I think -

00;11;03;25 - 00;11;05;17
Jie Ren
They’re already building a system.

00;11;05;20 - 00;11;29;27
Yilu Zhou
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we had a, you know, quite some startups even when I was in college. A lot of these were not successful, but, you know, a lot of them got, you know, venture investment. So that was where I start to know that, “Oh, just, you know, having good grades in math doesn't mean you are really good at it.” And I did feel intimidated sometimes.

00;11;30;00 - 00;11;31;00
Jie Ren
By the challenge?

00;11;31;07 - 00;11;59;23
Yilu Zhou
By my classmates, by the things that they are able to do, and they just seem to be very advanced. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feel intimidated because not everyone come with the background of programing and all that. But I kind of feel if I started my middle school and high school with such an environment, I may not feel I am a STEM kid.

00;11;59;23 - 00;12;33;13
Yilu Zhou
I may not decide that I will be a computer science major. So I think being in an all girls middle school actually helped me or encouraged me to major in the tech field. But then the good thing is that, you know, I find that it not everyone is so good with technology. I mean, there are people who come with a lot of prior experience, but there are people who are just like me, have very little, very little basic Pascal programing or maybe none program

00;12;33;14 - 00;12;57;16
Yilu Zhou
and you can learn. So I think I had maybe 1 or 2 years, I feel intimidated. But as you move forward, you also realize that there’s so many different fields, there are computer graphics, there are databases, operating systems, you know. You may not be the best student in a computer system, but maybe you can be very good with operating systems.

00;12;57;16 - 00;13;12;03
Yilu Zhou
So, as long as you find a niche, you don't have to be good with every single course. So I think later on I overcome the, you know, the fear or the feeling of not accomplishing.

00;13;12;05 - 00;13;35;25
Jie Ren
Yeah. I think you touched, like, multiple really important topics. Maybe let's start with this, like, the feeling thing that you just mentioned. Have you ever felt that you have this, imposter syndrome that you like, even though as a fact that you already are very good at what you do, but do you feel like you are not good enough? For example, could be like the top itself is intimidating in terms of content, or the environment,

00;13;35;25 - 00;13;39;10
Jie Ren
is it too competitive or do you feel that at all sometimes?

00;13;39;10 - 00;14;01;06
Yilu Zhou
Yeah, I think in college I do feel that, that, you know, everything is so difficult. And, and in Jiao Tong they say that it's very hard to graduate with no failed course. So almost everyone has a failed course. And then, you know, students get expelled for various reasons. Sometimes they play too many video games.

00;14;01;08 - 00;14;10;29
Jie Ren
But maybe because of that, they are, you know, they are building a, like, a game, game company, right? That is changing, right? Gaming industry or something like that.

00;14;10;29 - 00;14;37;13
Yilu Zhou
Yeah, that that might be true. And I feel like I, I have those I had those moments. But I guess you just overcome it because you realize that you are not the best, but you are not the worst either. So there's still a lot you can do there. Still a lot, you know. I think especially after I come to the States, the education here is very encouraging.

00;14;37;15 - 00;14;39;11
Jie Ren
100% agree.

00;14;39;14 - 00;15;02;00
Yilu Zhou
One of the thing that my friends said to me after I come and came to the States is, “if you don't understand something in class, it's the professor's problem. It's not your problem.” I was like that solved all my puzzles when I was in undergraduate because there's so many things that I didn't understand, and I have to ask for help here and there.

00;15;02;03 - 00;15;33;08
Yilu Zhou
So I feel like encouragement from peers is very important. Also finding even within technology, you may not be good at everything. But finding your niche, somebody may just be very good with front end development. Somebody may just like database, they like to deal with SQL, and other people like to deal with, let's say machine learning. They like to, you know, look at the modeling and the evaluation.

00;15;33;10 - 00;15;43;06
Yilu Zhou
So everyone has their niche and you can always find a niche even within technology. That's what I feel.

00;15;43;08 - 00;16;05;07
Jie Ren
So, imposter syndrome definitely is, like, relevant to everyone, right? At some point, especially when, you know, the, the, the context is challenging, but you, you, learning or to fading and everything, but it could be, very much, more relevant to like, the women's community. And then this month, we know that it is March Women's History Month. So that's why I brought this up.

00;16;05;10 - 00;16;27;06
Jie Ren
I can share a little bit my story here. So I remember this very vividly. Like, right after I got news that I got tenure here. And for a little while I still feel like is it real? Is it fake news? I'm pinching myself to kind of in order to understand, well, am I really doing it this well or

00;16;27;06 - 00;16;49;21
Jie Ren
this is fake? You know, it's kind of part of that is I'm not truly believing in myself entirely, even though I know that I should. It's just it's it's now I don't have those moments so often. But growing up, it could be like these bursts of moments from time to time, you feel like, oh, am I really belonging in here?

00;16;49;25 - 00;17;10;07
Jie Ren
So that's why I ask the question to to say so. I think the from what you said truly is that the, the you mentioned about encouraging environment. Right. So you came from all girl’s school and which is like encouraging each other to say, “yes, we can do this, right?” We, we got the ability and then we have our very driven idea.

00;17;10;08 - 00;17;22;25
Jie Ren
We can make it happen. Right? It's just to the girls, to the young girls, young women. And we need to keep telling ourselves the inner voice should be, like, very strong to say, well, you can do it.

00;17;22;28 - 00;17;59;20
Yilu Zhou
I think yes. If, if you have a very strong personality, it's not a problem. You will always trust in yourself. You can be aggressive on getting things. A lot of us are not, and it will be difficult for us to say I, I need this, I, you know, I can do it. It's important for the friends, the mentors, you know, or the society to say that, “Yes, you can do it,” to give more encouragement to, to girls. And gradually you will become a more confident person.

00;17;59;22 - 00;18;28;00
Yilu Zhou
And I, I actually feel that after I come to the States because I become a lot more confident. So I worked in, the artificial intelligence lab when I was in Arizona. And when I was in Jiao Tong, I never felt I was a top programmer. I can program, but, you know, I don't feel I'm building the world level applications. After I come to Arizona,

00;18;28;03 - 00;19;01;04
Yilu Zhou
my advisor, he, he's a very confident person, he has a lot of great visions. And whenever I implement a system, which he will give me instructions like, “this is what I need to have a summary. You take the first sentence of each paragraph, and here is a paper, you just follow and implement that.” So whenever I completed a system, he will say, “This is already, you know, maybe top 20 in the world,” or something like that.

00;19;01;04 - 00;19;05;16
Yilu Zhou
And I was like, is that right? Are you sure?

00;19;05;19 - 00;19;07;20
Jie Ren
He believed in you right away.

00;19;07;22 - 00;19;34;01
Yilu Zhou
I think he believed in me. More important, he believed in himself. And 20 years later, when I look at, you know, what we did back there, and it was really, you know, world class work, and I even have, you know, cases where I ask other professors in computer science for their code and for things, and they were all very nice helping me.

00;19;34;01 - 00;20;02;18
Yilu Zhou
So, you know, all these small things make you believe in yourself more and more when people trust you like a real colleague. So I'm very grateful for my experience working as a research assistant because I get to work with some of, you know, very intelligent people. They have the vision. So the challenge sometimes is not in the program itself, it’s in, you know, what problem you are solving.

00;20;02;21 - 00;20;20;11
Yilu Zhou
And I think when he said, you know, this is, you know, top 20, top ten in the world, it's not the actual program itself, it's the type of work you’re doing. But that does give me a lot of encouragement later on, to believe in myself.

00;20;20;14 - 00;20;32;05
Jie Ren
Is it also why, like, you are continuing, right, the journey to pursue artificial intelligence and then and also to do research related like to that topic? Do you want to elaborate that as well?

00;20;32;08 - 00;21;04;27
Yilu Zhou
I always had interest in technology. I feel at least, even when I was a kid, I told you my favorite subject was physics. My favorite teacher was physics. When we write articles, I write about my physics teacher. And I would stay in school and to solve all these, you know, challenging, sort of contest physics problems. And after I come to the States, I actually switched from computer science to management information system.

00;21;05;00 - 00;21;36;25
Yilu Zhou
But I was also told, this was the only business school I applied for. Everything else I applied for was computer science, but I was told that this was the most technical IS program, and I was very much into natural language processing. And again, this is because I worked in a natural language processing lab when I was in Jiao Tong University in my senior year. And we get the opportunity to meet with people from, German.

00;21;36;27 - 00;22;06;27
Yilu Zhou
This is also called an artificial intelligence lab. It's called DFKI. I think that Dutch means artificial intelligence lab. And they were very encouraging. You know, I asked questions. I should take them to the Peace Hotel back then, 1990 something. So they, they gave me a lot of good advice, which I think there are, I don't know, different signals sort of saying that, you know, this is maybe this is something that you should work on.

00;22;06;29 - 00;22;37;15
Yilu Zhou
And I just continued. Did I think about some other domains? Yes, I guess, but, I think, you know, natural language processing in particular, it's a big area in AI, has always interested me. I worked on things like machine translation, the different, you know, languages and, I mean, coming from China, we're bilingual, naturally. So it has always interest me

00;22;37;15 - 00;23;14;27
Yilu Zhou
and, and, and I think I'm fortunate because it is a field that become more and more popular over the years. Like it never died. When I started not many people do NLP. Like you can name the people and the labs that does NLP. And I probably have interacted with them in some conferences in case. Now the, you know, the most prestigious conference in computer science, you know, these NLP driven conferences, and the field has grown so much, and with large language model.

00;23;15;00 - 00;23;28;15
Yilu Zhou
So it's, it's very difficult to get bored in the field right now. There's so many. Yeah, there’s so many new things for you to learn. Yeah. So I think I’m lucky that this just happened to be the feild that I work on.

00;23;28;17 - 00;23;48;07
Jie Ren
Now we are talking about tech, right? And then you talk about, NLP and also large language models, and we know there are a lot of exciting things that are happening in the industry embracing Gen AI, or large language models, etc.. So we have been knowing this like for years, that tech is one of the drivers for economies in many societies.

00;23;48;09 - 00;24;05;14
Jie Ren
And given the fact that we are in the very fast paced age of AI, like in your opinion, how would that affect like women's participation in these industries, and, any encouraging words, encouraging words that we want to give to women, especially younger women?

00;24;05;17 - 00;24;30;20
Yilu Zhou
I think tech is a great field. I think the society has changed a little bit now, maybe more than a little bit that people are more acceptable, especially girls are more acceptable to major in tech. They embrace, embrace tech or in general tech and engineering more than before. So I think we are moving toward a good direction.

00;24;30;22 - 00;24;47;15
Yilu Zhou
I think in the US society, in China, there's no problem because we all grow up knowing that we have to learn mathematics. In US, I'm observing this from my daughter because when she was in primary school, she thinks being good at math is not cool.

00;24;47;17 - 00;24;58;20
Jie Ren
Oh really? [Yilu Zhou: Yeah.] Why do, have, have you have, like, thought about it or like, like figured it out, like from your observation? Do you know, why, what could be the reason why this not because it has a cool thing?

00;24;58;23 - 00;25;23;05
Yilu Zhou
I think it's related to the notion of being a nerd. Right. Being a nerd is not cool. So, and, of course, if you're good at academics, be good at math. You need a lot of time working on problems. So in other words, you may be less social and that that is not cool. So the coolest kids are the ones has most friends, the most social.

00;25;23;05 - 00;25;53;18
Yilu Zhou
They appear in every party. So I think that's a stereotype. Being good at math is not cool. But I do see that is changing now. I see there are more girls interested in math. Still, probably not enough. But I think we're seeing good, improvements in the area. Then again, you know, encouragement, for some of the competitions for high school students,

00;25;53;18 - 00;26;23;17
Yilu Zhou
they have, you know, specialized girls sessions or companies or organizations who will set price just for the girls. I think these are all great encouragement. Because if you start to feel you're really good at it, you are willing to do more in it. [Jie Ren: Yes.] Yeah. So these these are some of my thoughts and, you know, female helping female at some of our conferences, we have women's breakfast.

00;26;23;19 - 00;26;46;29
Yilu Zhou
I think these are all great initiatives to encourage girls because that's what we need most is encouragement. It’s belief that we are good enough. Right. So sometimes people say fake it till you make it. [Jie Ren: Yes, Yes, Yes.] And I feel the example you gave me is the opposite. I’ll fake it till you make it. You made it already and - [Jie Ren: Yeah, exactly, yes. Imposter Syndrome.] 
 -then you don't believe in it.

00;26;47;01 - 00;26;48;03
Jie Ren

00;26;48;05 - 00;26;54;02
Yilu Zhou
So that's, you know, really the opposite of what we should be doing.

00;26;54;05 - 00;27;21;20
Jie Ren
Yeah. So I, you said like, about women's participation right. There are more increasing, women participation in the workforce. That's totally true. But we definitely will need more women. Right. Especially in tech. Right. For example, some statistics shows that as of 2026, which is this year, like even though women make up almost 50% of the global workforce, in tech it is less than 30%.

00;27;21;23 - 00;27;55;19
Jie Ren
Hopefully you see that that ratio will increase more and more. And then you also talk about on the individual level, right, like believing in yourself, etc.. And then. Know that you are worthy, right? You, you, what you offer is valuable, etc. and then any organizational support that you think that I need in that environment or like the contexts or organization should, should prepare younger girls or women to further their education further their career or to encourage girls.

00;27;55;21 - 00;28;24;12
Yilu Zhou
I think organization support is important. What might be even more important is family support. If you grow up in a family where, you know, female does all the housework and the men just need to relax and play video game, then naturally you will think, you know, it's your responsibility, it's the female's responsibility, or job to do all the housework to make sure that everyone is fed.

00;28;24;17 - 00;28;49;17
Yilu Zhou
[Jie Ren: Yeah.] And so I think that is important. A lot of female quit or do not want to be more aggressive because they want more time to, you know, serve the family, spend time with kids. And it, it's a habit. It, you know, it's this is what we currently have. We still expect female to-

00;28;49;19 - 00;28;52;09
Jie Ren
Like different gender roles, right? Their stereotypical expectation.

00;28;52;12 - 00;29;20;16
Yilu Zhou
Yes, yes. I think you know it. It's not going to change in one night. But if we realize that, you know, the father can do the housework, and, you know, if you, you know, as, you know, father or as husband if you provide a more supporting role, more encouraging role to your girl, or your wife, or even your mom.

00;29;20;18 - 00;29;31;26
Yilu Zhou
And I think that will have a big impact on the girls who decide not to quit when they start to juggle between family, kids and,

00;29;31;29 - 00;29;32;27
Jie Ren
Careers and education.

00;29;32;27 - 00;29;48;13
Yilu Zhou
Yeah. Because you only have so much time. You can’t do everything. And somebody has to share the work, or do the work for you. So I think family support is even more important, than organization support.

00;29;48;15 - 00;30;26;20
Jie Ren
Yeah. I cannot agree more on that. Also , as a young girl growing up. Right. And then part of that, like, how do you feel like you are confident, right? And then you can do what you, what you can do, right? Yeah. Part of that, a big part of that encouraging message is coming from your family. Right? So that part 100% and when the father is like doing or sharing the housework and everything, it also shows a good role model. Right. For the daughter for example. Right. In terms of oh, you know, like if I am busy with work and I will get my family support in my household because someone else is,

00;30;26;27 - 00;30;29;03
Jie Ren
is taking care of the family as well.

00;30;29;05 - 00;31;15;27
Yilu Zhou
So yeah, I think it's very hard because, naturally people will think, you know, the family success or, like seeing maybe more the husband success in career. And yeah- [Jie Ren: Traditionally.] Yeah traditionally. Yeah. And you are happy if they are very successful, which is great. But very often that means you sacrifice yourself to some extent. I think it's hard to change overnight, but if I think if in the family, the husband become or the father become much more, supportive, then we will be able to see more female executive roles,

00;31;16;00 - 00;31;18;00
Yilu Zhou
You know, in, in jobs and.

00;31;18;02 - 00;31;34;17
Jie Ren
Cannot agree more. Right. 100%. Okay. So I have one final question to ask you. Right. So what are your final thoughts or advice to a young girl who aspires to enter the tech industry that is so fast paced and moving forward?

00;31;34;19 - 00;31;57;26
Yilu Zhou
I will say just go for it. Tech jobs right now are paid very well. The working hours are very reasonable, I think in the tech field. So you can still pick up a hobby in, in the tech field. And I see a lot of people who, you know, play guitar or, you know, do other things.

00;31;57;29 - 00;32;19;19
Yilu Zhou
And it's a great field. It's a fast paced field, but you learn new things every day. And you will feel excited. You will feel your time is not wasted. You probably will not feeling doing repetitive job because, you know, new models, new technique, new tools are coming out every day. And you're working with a lot of intelligent people.

00;32;19;19 - 00;32;24;18
Yilu Zhou
So it's a very cool and fun field to work to work in.

00;32;24;22 - 00;32;37;21
Jie Ren
Yeah. And maybe like one the final thought, which is based upon what you just said and then like, this is a great opportunity to become an entrepreneur as well, like combined with tech. Thank you so much, Yilu. [Yilu Zhou: Thank you very much for having me. Thank you everyone.] Thank you.

00;32;37;21 - 00;32;40;03
Yilu Zhou
You very much for having me. Thank you everyone.

00;32;40;05 - 00;32;40;17
Jie Ren
Thank you.