Episode 8 - AI & Creativity

00:00:18:01 - 00:00:37:01
Jie Ren
Hi everyone, this is Professor Jie Ren. Welcome to my podcast, “When Tech Meets Ed.” Today we are talking about a very, very interesting topic, which is creativity and AI with a good friend of mine, Dr. Kai Wang, who is an expert in this domain. So, Kai, why don't you introduce yourself?

00:00:37:03 - 00:00:51:14
Kai Wang
All right. Thank you. So first of all, it's very, it's a great pleasure to be here. So, honestly, it's humbling because I know you introduced, I mean, you have some really great speakers in the previous episode, so.

00:00:51:14 - 00:00:52:12
Jie Ren
You’re also good! Come on.

00:00:52:12 - 00:01:18:20
Kai Wang
Okay, thank you. So anyway, right, so I introduce myself. So, I am now a basically entrepreneur, even though I do some teaching on the side. So mainly I help companies and the people to innovate and grow. Sometimes, with the help of AI. But not necessarily. So I call these names, AI-Ager, but that's a different topic.

00:01:18:22 - 00:01:38:07
Kai Wang
So anyway, the other thing is that, I have been studying creativity and creative thinking for more than a decade, so I and that's why I believe that there's, something to share. And, also, like you said, in this area, there's even more to talk.

00:01:38:09 - 00:02:07:12
Jie Ren
100%. So, I think I heard someone saying this, like, AI is able to amplify one's ability kind of with AI, we are all becoming supermen, right? So, let's talk about, you know, the human core of it. Right? And then before we say, oh, let's go to this cave to become, Superman. Okay, so, could you please define creativity since there's very much, you know, like the essential part of human.

00:02:07:13 - 00:02:09:18
Jie Ren
Right. So. Yes, please.

00:02:09:19 - 00:02:37:15
Kai Wang
Well, you actually talk about two things, right? So you talk about the definition of that. And the second thing is that it's a core part of humanity. Okay. So the first thing. Yes. Definition of so the definition in that new world is actually relatively straightforward, even though it can be defined in different ways. The most common definition is the creativity is defined as the process or the ability to generate something new and useful.

00:02:37:17 - 00:03:19:15
Kai Wang
So that's a widely accepted definition. For the general public, though, it can be, pretty vague and, sometimes confusing term. So in the public view, sometimes it can be, confused with, artistic creativity, meaning, they are not totally separate, but there are two distinct, concepts in general. So I think there's a little bit of confusion about, creativity only been, about art, which is it's not so, not just in economic order, but in reality.

00:03:19:17 - 00:03:41:18
Kai Wang
So that's a definition. Part of that, maybe slightly more about that is, exactly. It's not just about art. Right. So creativity can be just generating something new and useful, which can be as simple as coming up with a joke. Right. Which is pretty daily or sometimes routine, task or, just routine part of our life.

00:03:41:20 - 00:04:06:17
Kai Wang
Right? Even if just coming up with a new way of saying something, that can be, an example of creativity as well. So it's really, pretty, I would say like, everyday aspect of life, it can be part of everyday life. So that's the first part. What we talk about, the second part you talk about is, creativity being a core part of a humanity.

00:04:06:17 - 00:04:09:02
Kai Wang
I think that's, it is.

00:04:09:07 - 00:04:10:17
Jie Ren
One dimension at least.

00:04:10:18 - 00:04:32:12
Kai Wang
Yeah. It is a pretty I think it's relatively well accepted, right. I don't think it's something that the general public thing about it, you know, on a daily basis. And don't not about it in general, though, I think, at least many people agree that being creative is a essential part. You know. Yeah. Basic outline.

00:04:32:14 - 00:04:52:14
Jie Ren
Yes. So I definitely agree with you. Like, creativity is not only about artistic output. And then it could be very much about day to day routines and then or you know for like companies R&D efforts. Right. So definitely that's the source for that effort. And then since you talk about, you know, the public perception of creativity, right.

00:04:52:18 - 00:05:13:00
Jie Ren
Even though many could believe the same way, which is, creativity is one dimension of the human core value. So why should we care about creativity? Because, like, some people could definitely get a relatively well-paying job without applying creativity to their everyday routine at work. So why should we care?

00:05:13:02 - 00:05:32:12
Kai Wang
Yeah. So I think that's a super, super, interesting and important question. And the reason why I believe so is obviously I have been studying and kind of, emerging myself. But, basically, I've been studying creatively for a very long time.

00:05:32:14 - 00:05:33:10
Jie Ren
Impressive to me.

00:05:33:12 - 00:05:52:07
Kai Wang
Right. To me, it's like, it's obvious. It's so super important. But when I talk to other people, it seems to be a totally different story. Right? So everyone has, you know, it’s our own, priorities. And oftentimes I have to come back to exactly the question you asked. Why should people care? Right. Because it turns out that many don't.

00:05:52:13 - 00:06:08:12
Kai Wang
Okay. So I think creativity sometimes is not something that people care about naturally. For a couple of different reasons. But I think the most obvious reason is that, we seems to be just doing okay. Yeah, we don't.

00:06:08:12 - 00:06:10:19
Jie Ren
Think about.

00:06:10:21 - 00:06:30:16
Kai Wang
For example, many college graduates, even though some struggle, but many do find good jobs without necessarily putting a lot of, you know, creative thinking type of, credentials in their resume. Right? And for, for senior people, for, let's say, you know, CEO or whoever, right? They don't have to brag about how creative they are.

00:06:30:17 - 00:06:47:06
Kai Wang
But the thing is that creativity doesn't have to be something that is, you know, just world changing, right? Not something that you have to win a Nobel Prize for. It is something that can be, again, like we said earlier, it can be something as simple as just saying something in a different way. Right? More friends are important.

00:06:47:06 - 00:07:06:13
Kai Wang
Probably in a different way. Yes. It could also be just, some small improvements in your R&D process, in developing a new product or new process. Right. It could be just a slightly better way of running a business. Or it could be just something. Again, you just tell a joke to a friend, which all of that is creativity.

00:07:06:15 - 00:07:28:11
Kai Wang
And it because there are different levels of it. And most people are doing perfectly fine without, you know, the most prominent like superstar level of creativity that gives people the wrong impression, as if this whole thing doesn't matter that much. So, actually, we need a lot of creativity in just general, you know, just in our daily lives.

00:07:28:11 - 00:07:49:07
Kai Wang
Right? So, for example, let's say my training, if I came here by train and by, you know, subway and so on. Right? So what if what if, what if something didn't work, right? What if, what if I a train is just, you know, stopped for whatever reason, right? So we do need to think outside, you know, just a routine way.

00:07:49:09 - 00:08:09:02
Kai Wang
Have I had to if that happened, I had to figure out a way to to come here. People may not think that as creativity, but it actually do need some, you know, out of just out of a routine way of of getting something done, right. And, that is something that people might not realize as much.

00:08:09:04 - 00:08:34:04
Kai Wang
So, so that's the first major point, which is again, creativity has different levels. And, we don't really need, you know, the top superstar level of creativity. But we do need to have some sort of, you know, novel thinking or ingenuity in just navigating through the challenges of our daily life. That's the first reason why I think it's super,

00:08:34:06 - 00:09:02:13
Kai Wang
it's more important than many people recognize. The second reason I believe it is, very important. Is particular in this AI era. Right. So, honestly, this the trend of automation went back all the way, you know, a long time, but particularly in the AI era, a lot of obviously routine tasks can be automated. And that actually put more value to the non-routine work. 

00:09:02:13 - 00:09:11:11
Kai Wang
Right. And because of simply because that, our ability to think creatively is going to just keep increasing going.

00:09:11:12 - 00:09:40:13
Jie Ren
Yeah. So, based on what you said, I want to kind of deviate a little bit, to talking about like, people's attitudes towards newness. Do you think that is also part of the reasons? Because like we all took the innovation management class in during our PhD program. Right? So Schumpeter's theory basically saying that, you know, like some so innovation is truly about the combination of the prior entities in different ways, in new ways.

00:09:40:13 - 00:09:59:21
Jie Ren
So basically, the keyword surely is newness. Do you think that people, people's tendency as human beings, like we tend to get into our comfort zone very much, and then that kind of level of comfort and then we don't like it's kind of it's not against our human nature, kind of like the it's not like we are being lazy or something.

00:09:59:21 - 00:10:09:22
Jie Ren
You just feels so comfortable. Right? So we don't want to embrace that uncertainty that is associated with this newness. Do you think that's also part of the reason?

00:10:10:03 - 00:10:15:22
Kai Wang
Well, yeah, definitely. That's that's part of the reasons. Oh by the way it's complex. Right. So it's not one or.

00:10:16:00 - 00:10:16:22
Jie Ren
100%.

00:10:16:22 - 00:10:39:15
Kai Wang
Right. So but by the way, that can lead to a different conversation about creativity. It's like essentially like having this view, your nature, meaning, whatever you say about creativity, then the opposite, almost always it's also true. But anyway, that's that's a different topic. Yes. So I think, related to that, there's like a dual or two aspect of human nature that is kind of in conflict.

00:10:39:17 - 00:11:02:00
Kai Wang
One is actually we crave for, we really want the audience. Right? So, for example, a lot of people like to go to, let's say, go on an adventure or, or just try something new, right? It's kind of human nature. Right? So some people just like to do extreme stuff like extreme sports. Right? Or as simple as you go to Six Flags just to, you know, explore.

00:11:02:05 - 00:11:02:20
Jie Ren
Roller-Coasters.

00:11:02:20 - 00:11:26:21
Kai Wang
Stuff. Right. Exactly. Some extreme, physical, conditions. So to some extent, people really love the new experience. But there's again, another aspect of human nature that is exactly what we said, right. So we are comfortable in the comfort of our comfort zone. That's exactly what it means. Yes. So. So, because we are more comfortable within our comfort zone.

00:11:26:21 - 00:11:54:00
Kai Wang
So something that is new, sometimes can like create a, like, it's almost like immune response to something exotic or, you know, too new. So both of that are human nature. So there is this kind of inherent conflict, or here like a contradiction. But yes. I think in general it applies to, to most people.

00:11:54:00 - 00:12:13:04
Kai Wang
Right. Pretty much all people, because we are inherently just feeling more secure in our comfort zone. And that kind of, makes creative ideas a little harder to be adopted or to, to spread out. Yeah. That can be part of the reason too. Yeah.

00:12:13:06 - 00:12:41:12
Jie Ren
Yeah. So like this, based upon what you just said. Right. I actually like this, dual system that you mentioned the adventurous nature. That's one dimension. The other dimension is that our tendency to stay in the comfort zone. So in the context of promoting creativity, we should very much embrace our adventurous nature. Always. Right. Okay. So, so now so far, we have set the stage in terms of the definition of creativity and why it is important.

00:12:41:14 - 00:13:13:14
Jie Ren
Then let's talk about the cake. Right? AI, right? So AI is becoming so popular and then it is evolving so quickly. And then many alternative tests have shown that AI indeed is creative in different contexts, such as artistic output, problem solving, and also idea generation. So could you please also elaborate? How could we, incorporate AI in humans creative work process?

00:13:13:15 - 00:13:41:12
Kai Wang
Right. Right. So again, to answer. So for one, maybe just elaborate a little bit, the, the fact that I have abilities am creating really fast. Yeah. Creative domain. And the second, of course, is how what do we do about how do we integrate. So the first aspect, so there is a recent a paper published in 2025, in Scientific Reports, which is a journal under nature, umbrella.

00:13:41:12 - 00:14:08:08
Kai Wang
Nature has a lot of journals. Right. Anyway, scientific report is pretty solid. So what they did, it actually was done by a business school, professor and his team. So they find out the, the more recent, AI models such as GPT four or maybe even more recently, they did better than average student across board or meaning on different kind of, typical creative thinking task tasks.

00:14:08:08 - 00:14:42:22
Kai Wang
So a very commonly used task is to name alternative uses of objects. Right. So for example, what may be all the ways to use let's say umbrella. Obviously we can use it in different ways than just, you know, blocking the sun or anyway. So in those kind of tasks, so again, basically an average student is not going to win over AI. That alone, though it does not necessarily mean that AI is objectively absolutely more creative than average person.

00:14:43:00 - 00:15:05:21
Kai Wang
However, it definitely means that it has a lot of potential or a lot of, use of that, for example generative AI, so that can lead to the second, fact, which is how do we integrate that? So I think it is really straightforward that we can just ask AI when we need a, ideas,

00:15:05:23 - 00:15:08:11
Jie Ren
Ideas for ideation.

00:15:08:12 - 00:15:28:12
Kai Wang
Right. So for example, if let's say as an example, right. Let's say if we, we have this podcast. Right. And we need, let's say we need ideas to get it out and get more attention, which obviously is an important, aspect. And then we can simply go to AI and ask for it. Right. So I think that's pretty straightforward.

00:15:28:12 - 00:15:57:10
Kai Wang
However, there's a downside to it if we do this too early, meaning if we skip the part that we just think for ourselves for it and then go straight to AI and ask it basically bypass our own, otherwise our own thinking. And that may be a bad thing for at least two reasons for AI could be biased, even though it is, you know, articulate.

00:15:57:10 - 00:16:18:15
Kai Wang
And it is, you can generate ideas very fast and many of them and, and actually many of them are good. It could still be biased, right, because it's based on whatever it's trained on. Right. It's basically the history. And the history does teach us a lot, but not necessarily, you know, all the ideas for future. Yes, that's one aspect.

00:16:18:17 - 00:16:34:07
Kai Wang
But honestly, I think the bigger, bigger, risk is the second aspect, which is if we, automatically just reach out to AI for, for our ideas, it is basically, giving up our, our,

00:16:34:09 - 00:16:35:10
Jie Ren
Own thinking. Right?

00:16:35:10 - 00:16:40:02
Kai Wang
Yeah. Our, our own thinking, which can become an habit.

00:16:40:04 - 00:16:41:03
Jie Ren
Oh very true.

00:16:41:05 - 00:17:02:01
Kai Wang
Right. And we talked about this before. But obviously, no, everyone is using GPS to navigate and myself included. And now we just don't even think of it. Right. So as if we don't have the ability to navigate it, we have to do is it actually needs practice. But now people don't even they don't even want to practice anymore.

00:17:02:03 - 00:17:25:03
Kai Wang
So that's the motivation part, which a lot of people may not recognize, which is, if we just have AI take over that don't just take over our own ability or own practice, or our own chance to practice, right. Our own chance to practice. But it could take out, take away our motivation. And I think that's a bigger risk. So how to deal with that?

00:17:25:03 - 00:17:45:09
Kai Wang
I think in general, we should at least give us a pretty good amount of time. What to think of first when we use AI, and we should use AI as a supplement. Right. Meaning, in addition to what we think, what could be, what what might be something we’re missing, right? Or what may be some additional ideas?

00:17:45:11 - 00:17:47:15
Kai Wang
I think there's a much better way.

00:17:47:17 - 00:18:18:10
Jie Ren
Yeah. So I can share some of my own experiences in terms of preparing for the podcast. So for every single episode, I prepare a topic and then my immediate thinking is like, should I use ChatGPT to brainstorm to see what questions I could be using to ask the guest speakers? I did try once though, and then. So I put the the topic in ChatGPT and it was like a like a long list of questions I could choose from.

00:18:18:12 - 00:18:40:01
Jie Ren
But then I decided to know how to use it 100%. Sometimes I do use it for inspiration. Reason is that I want the conversation to be very personal and related to the guest speaker. So if I ask the overarching questions and then they don't really feel like I'm having a cozy conversation, and then to get to know this guest speaker.

00:18:40:03 - 00:19:01:14
Jie Ren
So that's kind of, so I totally understand it can help as a supplement and not truly to replace my thinking in terms of that. And the other one I want to share and also address is the use of, the map navigation application. So very true. I mean, I'm so bad at directions and it definitely helps.

00:19:01:20 - 00:19:29:23
Jie Ren
And then I was thinking like, if I didn't really get a chance to use any of these navigation apps in my phone, probably. I'm super good at knowing the directions. And now basically I give up, right? Because the applications are so convenient. So it's the same logic if if anyone is constantly relying on AI to replace their own creative thinking and an outcome is also very good, and then there's no need, right?

00:19:29:23 - 00:19:56:22
Jie Ren
Like for that person to to like not motivated enough to think about things in a creative way 100%. Okay, so so we kind of touched upon like the the humans motivation and then the need for it for to keep humans, creative thinking. So your opinion painting how should we keep human in the loop in the creative work process?

00:19:57:00 - 00:20:25:05
Kai Wang
Okay. Right. So, the the earlier point, right. We discussed, I brought up early, that is, we should probably start with human thinking first. And it's not just, good as it's a good exercise, to just keep our thinking alive, but also it's very important in the sense that we humans bring in the context.

00:20:25:05 - 00:20:46:10
Kai Wang
Right. So, for example, when you do your podcast, you you actually have the context, you know, the speaker, you know what a speaker, minds are just right. So you you have that context in your mind and typically is not very, feasible for you to give the other context. Yeah, right, so and it's not necessary desirable universally.

00:20:46:10 - 00:21:09:07
Kai Wang
Anyways, so because we humans have a context and for us to think first it's going to set the direction. Right. Right. Because otherwise I doesn't know the context. It may give you some even good ideas, but the thing is that the AI most likely will miss the context, and that can set the stage for something that is not necessary, you know, in the right path.

00:21:09:09 - 00:21:32:17
Kai Wang
Right? So, for example, AI may give you a really plausible, you know, set of questions or ideas that seems to be good. And then we might have a tendency to follow along, and that may lead to a different task, which is going to miss a lot of context. Right. And again, context matters. Right. So obviously, in a lot of work scenarios, context super important.

00:21:32:19 - 00:21:59:04
Kai Wang
So starting with human is I think in general, it's very important after human thinking then bringing the AI as a supplement. Right. So again, what are additional perspectives, additional ideas, right. Or additional ways to think about this problem or to, to consider the ideas? Right? I think that can be super useful. And that's kind of the part you talk about, like we are becoming supermen.

00:21:59:06 - 00:22:28:20
Kai Wang
It's like we need to put our own, you know, skin on, like our own clothes on before we put on the cape on or whatever the expression is. Okay. Yeah. Whatever. So having that AI as a supplement I think can be super powerful, right. It's almost making us having superhuman capabilities. But then, after that, you still want to bring back to the human aspect in a sense that I can provide great input and, and, supplemental, ideas or perspectives at the end,

00:22:28:21 - 00:22:54:03
Kai Wang
we still want to produce something that is for humans, right? So we don't produce either ideas or products or, essays or whatever it eventually is for humans, so that the final touch is probably much better to be handled by humans. So in other words, for example, AI may give us ideas or supplemental ideas, and let's say if we are developing an essay or a project proposal at the end, right,

00:22:54:03 - 00:23:17:16
Kai Wang
we still probably want to put a human touch on it. So because again, at the end, whatever, whatever the end output, most likely the consumer who is going to consume that is human, right? So having human because we have the again, the context, the understanding, and how it may be finished in a way that is appropriate for the audience.

00:23:17:18 - 00:23:53:06
Kai Wang
I still think in most cases, it's better for humans to do that. By the way, this is not my my idea per se. Right. So there actually was brought up by, some other, you know, people in the field. So there's so-called sandwich principle. It was… I forgot the name. Exactly. But anyway, he mentioned this sort of sandwich principle, like human, AI, human, in the sense that we put AI here, and it's like a middle layer or in the middle set that that might be a better way in general, a better way of, integrating

00:23:53:10 - 00:24:12:23
Jie Ren
Kind of understand it as like we humans start the process kind of like a project manager. And then we could give very concrete instructions. And also in that context, to ask AI to do the work. And then we do the evaluation in the end as humans. So, is that the sandwich principle that you mentioned.

00:24:13:01 - 00:24:15:19
Kai Wang

00:24:15:21 - 00:24:35:16
Kai Wang
To some extent, yes. Not not necessarily have AI do the work and we evaluate which I think is also a common, notion out there suggesting that since AI is so powerful, maybe we design the work, AI do the work and we evaluate. Right. Which is not necessarily,

00:24:35:18 - 00:24:38:02
Jie Ren
It also can be like a recursive process.

00:24:38:04 - 00:25:11:23
Kai Wang
Right, right, right. Yeah. Yes. And again, it can be used well, I think it can be feasible in the variable in, in some occasions. So that I think in creative work, I my, my personal opinion is, we might not want AI to handle all the creation. So for the reasons I just mentioned, for one, we need to bring the in the context or the other, we actually need to get our own thinking, because at the end, it is something that we actually are going to act on.

00:25:12:01 - 00:25:24:16
Kai Wang
That's by the way, that's actually an additional perspective, which is when we create something, let's say a proposal or an essay or idea, a business plan right at the end is to be implemented. Right?

00:25:24:18 - 00:25:25:12
Jie Ren
Yes.

00:25:25:14 - 00:25:51:16
Kai Wang
And to be implemented we need to be, motivated. And I think that's another aspect that many people don't recognize, which is even if AI gives the perfect idea, perfect because it's humans to implement it. And guess what? So if we have our own input in the business plan, we are much more likely to be motivated as opposed to.

00:25:51:16 - 00:26:09:20
Kai Wang
So for example, let's say I go to AI, I generate a perfect business plan and give it to you, and you will be less likely in general to implement that. Then let's say you actually crafted a big chunk of that business. Even if that final plan is identical.

00:26:09:22 - 00:26:11:17
Jie Ren
There is the sense of belongingness.

00:26:11:19 - 00:26:20:09
Kai Wang
Exactly right. Yes. So you do have your own contribution. You kind of you can put your signature on that plan. That alone can make a lot different.

00:26:20:14 - 00:26:43:23
Jie Ren
Yeah. I kind of understand in two different ways combined. One is the ability of AI. Of course there are different levels of capacity for the ability. The second one is still the public perception or individual users perception of the use of AI. I still feel like it is, not, you know, something that I created, right?

00:26:44:01 - 00:26:56:10
Jie Ren
As a creative work. So therefore I don't I'm not the owner of it. I don't own up to it therefore psychologically am less motivated to carry on to implement the plan.

00:26:56:12 - 00:27:14:00
Kai Wang
I believe so, and I think, well, first of all, my own experience is like that. And second, I think in general, in just studies about human motivation, I think in general, it's not that it's not a secret that if we feel that we own something, we are much more likely to actually get it done. Right.

00:27:14:00 - 00:27:41:01
Kai Wang
So if we actually have AI do every creation, creation part of it. And if we only do the evaluation part right, which can be feasible, by the way, not necessarily always desirable. Right. So again, my point is even if the output to the plan is identical, exactly the same, created partially by me versus created entirely by AI, the way and how much I'm going to devote to it is going to be different.

00:27:41:01 - 00:27:46:21
Kai Wang
And that devotion is actually going to make a lot of difference that many people just don't recognize that.

00:27:46:23 - 00:28:07:22
Jie Ren
So, okay, if I summarized. Right, what I just said about how to keep human in the loop. So first of all, we need to be like leading the process to be motivated enough to lead the process. AI is a tool as a supplement, and for the creative part, we still want to devote ourselves to it, right?

00:28:07:22 - 00:28:20:02
Jie Ren
And then again. Again, like AI could do the work, right? Just to supplement this entire process according to its different abilities for different purposes during the whole process.

00:28:20:04 - 00:28:46:13
Kai Wang
I believe. So, I don't think people have published a lot around that. But according to my experience, again, both you and me and I have studied creative for a while. I think in general its much more desirable and, and I don't believe that people have emphasized that enough because a lot of people treat creative work as if it's just about output, right.

00:28:46:15 - 00:29:05:08
Kai Wang
But again, my point is you are going to do something with that output. So you create a business plan, you are actually going to implement that. And who is going to implement that? It is only those people who are devoted enough. So if the whole plan is created by AI, why should I, you know, throw my life to use it and spend the next four decades on the system?

00:29:05:08 - 00:29:28:07
Kai Wang
But I'm not going to do that. Very simple. Because what I would much more likely to devote myself to something like the plan that I actually wrote about. Right? So as an example, not a necessary business, but just everything as an example, the motivation part is it's missing from a lot of our conversations, you know, a lot of hype out there that people I just think that is kind of ignored.

00:29:28:09 - 00:29:48:16
Jie Ren
Yeah. So this is actually a great point to transition to the next question. I definitely feel this because I also paint and then like, when I paint, I feel like it's not only the output per se. I also very much enjoy the whole process of painting. So I got joy out of this creative process. Right.

00:29:48:20 - 00:30:13:10
Jie Ren
So that's also like one of the points that you, you touched upon. Right? So, in the artistic world, people have different attitudes towards AI. Some people will be like, I don't want to use AI at all, because I want this whole process to be purely human based. And then, let's say someone decides to not use AI at all for creative work, not necessarily about artistic creation.

00:30:13:10 - 00:30:26:12
Jie Ren
Could it be like other types of creation? Right. Such as the day to day routine such as the idea generation or, problem solving? Do you think that's a good idea? Do you think that is a good option?

00:30:26:14 - 00:30:35:00
Kai Wang
I think it's a personal choice. Right. So especially if it's about artistic choice, then I don't think I have much to comment on that.

00:30:35:00 - 00:30:38:00
Jie Ren
Yeah, let's leave that out of picture and then focus on the more…

00:30:38:00 - 00:30:44:01
Kai Wang
Alright. So if we don't talk about artistic choice, if our choice and the other is that whoever whatever the choices.

00:30:44:03 - 00:30:45:13
Jie Ren
If that's their signature style.

00:30:45:17 - 00:31:16:02
Kai Wang
Yes. If someone in general, let's say if we are dealing with just in general, you know, business problem solving or just generating ideas, for example, generating ideas or podcasts and so on. I think in general I can have a pretty good contribution. You know, again, I think it's can be pretty powerful as a supplement if we don't use it, which probably is okay in many occasions, but we could be missing out a lot.

00:31:16:04 - 00:31:30:09
Kai Wang
So in general, I don't think I can say that in absolute terms, but in general, if we don't use AI in our creative work, there is a chance, a pretty good chance that we're missing out our life.

00:31:30:11 - 00:31:33:02
Jie Ren
We are losing the key to be the Superman.

00:31:33:04 - 00:31:56:21
Kai Wang
Kind of right? Right? Yes. I mean, so like we mentioned earlier, right. So we already have, peer reviewed studies showing that I basically can generate, you know, ideas around some, creative thinking tasks, above just average college students. That, by the way, is pretty remarkable achievement. I don't think people have talked about that enough.

00:31:56:23 - 00:32:20:18
Kai Wang
Even though there could be argument in the sense that maybe has seen that question already, but that's beside the point. So so the point of meaning AI is able to generate a lot of options that maybe out of our own, you know, routine thinking, just have an example. Right. Let's say you are developing your podcast, and obviously there are a lot of different topics you can talk about.

00:32:20:20 - 00:32:28:10
Kai Wang
And I'm pretty sure you're able to develop a pretty good list. Solid, high quality design yourself.

00:32:28:12 - 00:32:40:08
Kai Wang
But I still think there's a very good chance that AI can contribute, additional topics or additional ways to either frame your podcast or to, connect that to some different domain. Right.

00:32:40:08 - 00:32:42:16
Jie Ren
Just let me think outside the box essentially.

00:32:42:16 - 00:33:05:16
Kai Wang
Right. Bringing an additional perspective, I think is a very, very powerful thing. That's actually one of the major aspect of creativity is divergent thinking. Right.. So, so I think yes, in general if we don't tap into that, it's kind of missing out on something that is cheap and powerful and could be potentially transformative.

00:33:05:16 - 00:33:32:09
Kai Wang
Right. So it could transform the whole creative work in a different way. So I think, yes, in general, I think we probably should integrate somehow. In most scenarios. So, but but again, there are different ways to use it. Right. So I think we still in general, I think it's more desirable to have humans the, the process and be very, deliberate.

00:33:32:11 - 00:33:33:22
Kai Wang
Right. So knowing that.

00:33:33:22 - 00:33:35:19
Jie Ren
Be open for the use of AI.

00:33:36:01 - 00:34:02:09
Kai Wang
Right and open in bringing AI in such that we know why we use AI and we know the risk of, being dependent on it. Okay. and being deliberate in the sense that we know we have done our own part. We have done our own work in pretty high quality way now, let’s bring in AI to bring in even more additional ways.

00:34:02:11 - 00:34:08:12
Kai Wang
So additional options or perspectives. I think that would be, in general and more desirable.

00:34:08:14 - 00:34:38:00
Jie Ren
Nice. So, then let's talk about kind of the I wouldn't say the dark side of using AI, but at least some concerns and risks. You also mentioned that relying on not just AI and a digital creation, right. For example, our phones, that's very much like our brain extension right now. Right. So if we rely on that too much, we are losing the motivation to train ourselves to achieve similar outcome.

00:34:38:02 - 00:34:52:17
Jie Ren
So, in addition to that, do what if we want to elaborate on that? Do you have other concerns that you want to talk about? If someone chooses to rely on AI for creativity?

00:34:52:19 - 00:35:09:03
Kai Wang
Right. I think the, the other side is it's related to what you just talked about. Right? So when you do your painting, you have to find joy. And I probably find some, some even meaning in which I think is a very, very, obviously important part of our life in general. Right.

00:35:09:03 - 00:35:10:22
Jie Ren
100%, yes

00:35:11:00 - 00:35:14:14
Kai Wang
We live to, to do something we find joy in or for meaning.

00:35:14:16 - 00:35:19:23
Jie Ren
It's not the apple that matters. Oh, of course it matters. But the whole process also matters, right?

00:35:19:23 - 00:35:42:13
Kai Wang
So I think in general, if we are kind of letting AI take that away, that would be very, very, bad thing. And by the way, another thing about it is it's not obvious. Meaning the risk is not as obvious. Right. Some risks are pretty obvious. For example, if… what is the obvious risk? Let's say I go out knowing that there's rain and I go out without an umbrella.

00:35:42:13 - 00:35:59:19
Kai Wang
The risk is obvious. Yeah. And the risk of AI taking over or taking away our, you know, either joy or meaning or whatever we call it is not as obvious. And essentially, I think that the risk is particularly high for kids.

00:35:59:21 - 00:36:00:14
Jie Ren

00:36:00:16 - 00:36:02:16
Kai Wang
In the, in the sense that.

00:36:02:18 - 00:36:04:19
Jie Ren
Because they are in the learning process.

00:36:05:00 - 00:36:13:08
Kai Wang
Right, kids are building up their habits. Right? So we by the way, we are academic and by the way, we are kind of the nerd.

00:36:13:10 - 00:36:16:19
Jie Ren
We are nerds, admit it.

00:36:16:20 - 00:36:39:20
Kai Wang
But whatever the downside of that we nerds kind of have a good habit of, you know, value and enjoy, you know, reading, thinking and so analyzing so right. And we already developed the habits, through decades of training or since we were kids and kids right now, the kids right now, right in 2025, they haven't really had that training

00:36:39:22 - 00:36:43:04
Kai Wang
yet if they grow up. Not if they grow up with AI.

00:36:43:06 - 00:36:44:08
Jie Ren
Yes, as a fact.

00:36:44:09 - 00:37:06:02
Kai Wang
And if they kind of just rely only on their thinking and especially deep thinking, which is particularly meaningful, right? And also bring joy and, and also be, of course, good for their career anyway, if, if people form the habit of having to rely only on AI, once the habit forms, it's hard to get away.

00:37:06:04 - 00:37:07:05
Jie Ren
Right? It's hard to break.

00:37:07:07 - 00:37:25:10
Kai Wang
And, and AI is getting more powerful and probably more user friendly along the way. Yeah. So, in other words, basically is the kids don't get started in the right way. Then long term consequences can be severe. Yes. But again, I don't think that people have recognized that enough.

00:37:25:12 - 00:37:29:14
Jie Ren
Because we are still in the very early days, we are talking about like decades later.

00:37:29:16 - 00:37:38:12
Kai Wang
Right. That's hard. That I think, is not obvious, but I think the consequences can be very.

00:37:38:14 - 00:38:00:12
Jie Ren
I totally agree with you. I think the public definitely should be more aware of this. Right. And then even though AI is super powerful, we still need us to rely on our own thinking, especially when it comes to kids education. [Kai Wang: Right.] Okay, so I have one more question. That final question for you, since we are talking about kids, we are talking about education.

00:38:00:14 - 00:38:13:13
Jie Ren
So, any suggestion to, for example, students who want to practice their creativity and then increase their creativity in the age of AI as the final final remark for this, episode.

00:38:13:15 - 00:38:25:02
Kai Wang
All right. Thank you. I think that's important. And, maybe let me elaborate a little bit on the importance of art. Because again, I think for the general public. Right.

00:38:25:04 - 00:38:33:10
Kai Wang
We most of us just go through life without deliberately thinking about creative thinking or deliberate use, our creative thinking per se.

00:38:33:12 - 00:38:36:14
Jie Ren
And this just to be okay. In many cases, yes, it seems to be fine.

00:38:36:14 - 00:39:01:17
Kai Wang
And that's again a major reason why people don't just pay like services to like, we value creativity. Everyone says that. But when you actually say, did you get to go through training right? Did you learn the path that most people don't even, you know, I think that's something on the list of priority at all. So I think the very first thing is to have the mindset in the sense that, mindset meaning don't just treat creativity as a skill.

00:39:01:19 - 00:39:22:04
Kai Wang
I think that's pretty common. Like misconception like as if creativity is a skill like swimming. Right. Swimming a skill because you have it or you don't have it. And but the difference between creativity and swimming is that swimming is a skill that you only use in very particular scenarios, and you don't think about swimming just in your, you know, daily life.

00:39:22:06 - 00:39:46:16
Kai Wang
Creativity is different. Creativity is a mindset, a mindset in the sense that it actually can be an attitude towards life. Right? So meaning whatever thing we do and whatever approach we take, it is just one of the many things or many approaches possible. And there's always ways to either improve or there are always different ways to do it right.

00:39:46:18 - 00:40:11:12
Kai Wang
And that mindset is super important to have in the first place. And I that's I haven't even talked about AI yet, right. So I think without that mindset, treating creativity or treating creative with AI solely as a skill is missing a big part of it. Right? Again, just as a mindset, I think, if we talk about students, right.

00:40:11:17 - 00:40:37:13
Kai Wang
I think we should have the mindset just to start with. So again, whatever we pursue in life, there are different ways to achieve different approaches. And we are only taking one approach. That's that's a basic, recognition of the mindset. The other aspect of that is to, I think very important is to pick something that, you actually care about in the long term to, to work also.

00:40:37:15 - 00:41:02:06
Kai Wang
Right, right. So we can call it passion, what we can call devotion or what, whichever way. And I think it's particularly important in our era in the sense that because AI is so powerful and, so transformative, basically it's going to replace a lot of routine tasks. And the remaining, tasks, first of all, is going to be more likely to be creative.

00:41:02:08 - 00:41:27:06
Kai Wang
But more importantly, I think students, in general go through education to build a long term career. I typically don't go to college just to get a job that can just get by. They want to build a career. Yes, and a career is a decade long thing. And it's not going to be, the most successful, if there's not something that you are going to persist.

00:41:27:07 - 00:41:52:18
Kai Wang
Right. So in other words, if we if we change our direction every two years pursuing whatever the most shining thing out there, it might not be the most productive way, right? Especially when AI is so powerful. And there are a lot of distractions. But at the end, at the end, we want to make sure that, our capabilities are marketable or competitive, whichever way we call it.

00:41:52:20 - 00:42:19:03
Kai Wang
It's actually built on a very long accumulation. Just like if you do a PhD, you need a lot of time. Yes, but but students, they want to be very competitive and really have something in their, in their mind that is very, very marketable. It needs to be something that you actually will persist on. And by the way, that is something that AI is not able to do as of now.

00:42:19:05 - 00:42:29:02
Kai Wang
I don't know whether it's going to change in ten years, but what I mean by that is we humans can actually potentially do something for ten years, right?

00:42:29:05 - 00:42:30:13
Jie Ren
More than that.

00:42:30:15 - 00:42:54:05
Kai Wang
Yeah, of course more than that. And that's actually, it turns out to be a huge advantage that AI doesn't have. Right. So, AI can have some very, very major advantages over here. Right. So it's power. It's knowledge along its ability to connect different dots. It's actually it's able to create over a hundred ideas and all those things are great or fantastic, but what AI is not able to do,

00:42:54:05 - 00:43:14:02
Kai Wang
and at least for probably in the near future, is that AI is not going to do something for the next ten years. Right. So unlike us, for example, we may be, study creativity for ten years, but I don't expect that AI is going to do something for ten years continuously and continuously. And I think that's going to be a very big advantage of humans.

00:43:14:02 - 00:43:28:23
Kai Wang
That is, we are able to actually choose something and persist, for a very long period of time. And that's going to have a non-linear or, but just increasing return on the time you invested.

00:43:29:01 - 00:43:54:06
Jie Ren
So can I kind of summarize what you just said as that with AI we could be Superman. But before we face this opportunity or use this opportunity, let's make sure that we invest in ourselves long term to be creative first, and then we can put on the Cape and become a creative superman, right? Right? And with AI as supplement.

00:43:54:08 - 00:43:58:22
Kai Wang
I believe, so, thank you. That's a very, very fantastic. So, thank you.

00:43:58:22 - 00:43:59:20
Jie Ren
Thank you so much for coming.

00:43:59:20 - 00:44:02:19
Kai Wang
Right. Sure. Yeah. Thank you, professor. Thank you.