Episode 12 - Fashion Modeling in the Age of AI

00:00:19:00 - 00:00:44:15
Jie Ren
Welcome to my podcast, When Tech Meets Ed. Today, we are talking about a very important and interesting topic, which is fashion modeling in the age of AI. And this week, we have NYC Fashion Week ongoing, and then I'm very happy to have a fashion model, Yiran Guo, to join us, connecting with us from California to talk about this topic.

00:00:44:17 - 00:00:47:20
Jie Ren
Thank you, Yiran, for being on my podcast.

00:00:47:22 - 00:00:50:17
Yiran Guo
Thank you for having me.

00:00:50:19 - 00:01:01:07
Jie Ren
I remember that we met two years ago, right? At a NYC fashion show. Correct? Yeah. [Yiran Guo: Yeah. We met there]

00:01:01:09 - 00:01:25:03
Jie Ren
Yeah. It was truly impressive. And I saw you walking on the runway. I can share a little story about mine. So I did a little modeling when I was younger, in my early 20s, and failed miserably, so I know how competitive and tough this business is. I'm so looking forward to our conversation, especially to hear your story.

00:01:25:04 - 00:01:28:18
Jie Ren
So, Yiran, could you please introduce yourself?

00:01:28:20 - 00:01:57:19
Yiran Guo
Oh, sure. So my name is Yiran. I did my undergrad in computer science back in China, and then I came to the US for my master's at Yale, also in computer science. And for modeling, honestly, it's something I've always been curious about because people would constantly ask me when I grew up, “Are you a model?” So at some point, I thought, why not actually give it a try?

00:01:57:21 - 00:02:20:09
Yiran Guo
So during my senior year in China, I started doing photography modeling, and just shooting with local photographers. Then, right after I graduated from Yale, it happened to be right before the New York Fashion Week, so I went to some castings and just jumped in.

00:02:20:11 - 00:02:52:19
Jie Ren
That's a very impressive journey. Especially, you are navigating two different worlds. One is technology, the other one is fashion, right? And then I did read your profile information, and it's truly impressive that you have not only participated in many runway fashion shows, but also your photos have been covered by a really top fashion magazines, including Harper's Bazaar magazine and also ELLE Magazine.

00:02:52:21 - 00:03:04:07
Jie Ren
So, could you please talk about how you prepare for a NYC Fashion Week fashion show?

00:03:04:09 - 00:03:40:15
Yiran Guo
Oh, how I prepare. So there was a lot of preparation involved. So first of all, because models are very slim, so I was really strict with my diet, and I need to lose weight to look prettier and slimmer, and also work out, do yoga, and build my muscles. So basically, I tried to get in the best shape I could, and I also practice my runway walk constantly, mostly from YouTube tutorials and a few in-person classes.

00:03:40:17 - 00:03:56:07
Yiran Guo
And then I also need to put together a comp card. So that's basically the photos of myself from different angles to show to the designers and producers and apply for shows.

00:03:56:09 - 00:04:03:23
Jie Ren
Yeah, I wonder how many hours you are immersing yourself in the gym every week. Must be a lot, right?

00:04:04:00 - 00:04:14:05
Yiran Guo
Yeah, I feel, actually, not that much. [Jie Ren: Really?!] I dance to like to exercise and also do some work.

00:04:14:05 - 00:04:15:23
Jie Ren
That’s even better.

00:04:16:00 - 00:04:26:10
Yiran Guo
Yeah, dancing. I feel like that's more easier to insist rather than just working out in the gym.

00:04:26:12 - 00:04:30:21
Jie Ren
Yeah, it's more interesting than just going to the gym, right?

00:04:30:23 - 00:04:32:16
Yiran Guo
Yeah. That’s right.

00:04:32:18 - 00:04:47:07
Jie Ren
That is great. And then I know that you have been participating in the modeling industry for years. And how did you develop your career? Did you see any snowball effect?

00:04:47:09 - 00:05:22:06
Yiran Guo
Yeah, absolutely. There is a snowball effect. So once you start to get exposure, things will kind of build on each other naturally. So for my first opportunity at NYFW, I actually went to three– I got three shows through open castings. And then that means I just showed up in the casting and line-up and auditioned, but another one just came out of nowhere.

00:05:22:07 - 00:05:48:08
Yiran Guo
So I was literally standing in line for a casting on the street, and a designer walked by and stopped and asked if I was free that Saturday for their show. And I said yes,[Jie Ren: Nice], and that's another show. So there are also other cases, like during the shows, there are always photographers, media people, and other designers watching.

00:05:48:09 - 00:06:12:07
Yiran Guo
So some of them would just approach me afterward with new offers, like, “Are you available this time?” and “Can you come to this show?” So, and also after each show, I'd post the photos on Instagram, and that would also attract more designers reaching out to collaborate. So that really does snowball.

00:06:12:09 - 00:06:30:02
Jie Ren
Yeah, it has been a trend that a lot of fashion models do have a lot of social media followers, right? So they are promoting not only their images but also how they carry these different designs. Right? And maybe influence their fan base to buy this clothing. Right?

00:06:30:04 - 00:06:32:01
Yiran Guo
That's right.

00:06:32:03 - 00:07:03:14
Jie Ren
All right, so let's – So now we have set the stage already. So let's focus on the centerpiece of today's discussion, artificial intelligence. Right? So AI has been transforming many industries, including the fashion industry and also the fashion modeling industry as well. I'm very much curious to hear your initial reaction. Like what was your initial reaction when you first heard or even saw AI-generated models?

00:07:03:16 - 00:07:35:05
Yiran Guo
Yeah. Honestly, I was very shocked by how real they looked, so like they were so convincing, I wouldn't have immediately known that they weren't actual people, and I hadn't expected AI to get to the level where it could genuinely present clothing, and also other products as well. But my second reaction was worry, because if they looked so good, they're going to take a lot of jobs away from real models,

00:07:35:07 - 00:07:39:16
Yiran Guo
and that's a very real concern.

00:07:39:18 - 00:08:08:13
Jie Ren
You can imagine this as I just mentioned, this business is very competitive, right? And then it's very much like a pyramid. You have a very few popular top models that are at the tip of the pyramid. And then you have a lot of not-so-popular models, right? So we will definitely talk about like how the use of AI-generated model will affect this dynamic in the job market for fashion modeling.

00:08:08:15 - 00:08:41:07
Jie Ren
So before we go there, let's switch to the designer’s side. Right? And then to talk about the designers’ use of AI-generated models. We both know, right, it's very expensive to book a real model, right, to try your designs, especially before your designs are released at some fashion shows. So many aspiring designers are using AI-generated models to try their designs.

00:08:41:09 - 00:08:45:13
Jie Ren
So what is the view on that?

00:08:45:15 - 00:09:17:16
Yiran Guo
I think they will like gradually complement a part of human models. So I've had designer friends tell me that they've already stopped hiring models for shoots. They just use an AI app and photograph the clothes and then generate images they needed. And I have noticed more and more e-commerce sites doing the same thing. They no longer hire real models and just use AI to generate their visuals.

00:09:17:19 - 00:09:39:15
Yiran Guo
So I think this trend is only going to grow. And right now, absolutely every industry is dealing with AI replacing human models. So, and replacing the other human roles in their industry. So modeling isn't an exception, I think. There's just a reality that we are heading to.

00:09:39:17 - 00:10:07:17
Jie Ren
That is very true. It's not only affecting AI, it's not only affecting the fashion industry, and also the fashion model industry, all the industries as well, right? So yeah, we are facing a lot of challenges for sure. Right? So maybe let's talk about the different categorizations of fashion models. Could you please elaborate on the types? I know that there are like a few types, right?

00:10:07:19 - 00:10:29:13
Jie Ren
The runway models, the print models, and also commercial models. And then first, could you please explain the difference between– among these three, and maybe there are more? If you want, you can elaborate on that as well. Second point related to this is how does AI, in your opinion, affects the different categories of fashion modeling?

00:10:29:15 - 00:11:05:23
Yiran Guo
Yeah, sure. So the three categories are as said. The first one is a runway model. So they're basically walking the catwalk. And you wear the designer’s collection and present it live. And the second print model is more editorial, like magazines’, artistic campaigns, and the places you need a lot of expressiveness and strong visual presence. And the third one imagines the commercial model.

00:11:06:00 - 00:11:28:16
Yiran Guo
Right. So that's more product-focused. Like you advertise the campaigns for websites just like Amazon, like Taobao, and catalogs where you're showing off clothes and products for those e-commerce websites, and also for some video ads as well.

00:11:28:18 - 00:11:38:08
Jie Ren
Okay. So, in your opinion, which category of the fashion modeling will be most affected by the use of AI?

00:11:38:10 - 00:12:38:21
Yiran Guo
Yeah. In terms of AI risk, I think runway is the safest because you cannot exactly send a robot down to a physical runway. [Jie Ren: Yeah.] And print model, I think it also has some protection because it demands real emotional depth and authenticity. Like you really need to express some very fashion gestures, some very strange angles. And it's I think it's not that easy to be replaced and generated by AI right now. But commercial modeling, I think that's the most vulnerable one, because it's pretty easy for AI to generate the clean and the polished product images, and it doesn't need the personality that maybe other models require.

00:12:38:22 - 00:12:44:14
Yiran Guo
So we are already seeing AI taking over a lot of that work.

00:12:44:16 - 00:13:12:01
Jie Ren
Yeah. So it also depends on which market segment you are talking about, right? Maybe this is more towards a luxury goods then maybe the more human models are being used, right? If it's towards like I say, the public, more regular market, for the consumer goods, and then maybe more AI usage, especially coming from startups, coming from companies that are not so resourceful to hire real models.

00:13:12:02 - 00:13:13:07
Jie Ren
Right?

00:13:13:09 - 00:13:42:06
Yiran Guo
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So, for example, these models are doing commercial work, especially ones who haven't built a strong personal brand yet. I feel like that kind of work is the easiest for AI to replicate, and the demand for that is going to keep shrinking. But other like supermodels and celebrity models like Lu Han.

00:13:42:08 - 00:13:45:06
Jie Ren
Yeah. A very famous one coming from China.

00:13:45:08 - 00:14:15:04
Yiran Guo
Yeah. Of course, they're in a very different position. Like they have something AI cannot create, like a real fan base, and also cultural influence, and the power to actually move people. So, I feel, when a well-known model promotes something, the followers just trust them and respond. And of course, AI advertisements have no fans, so no emotional history with the audience.

00:14:15:06 - 00:14:49:16
Jie Ren
Yeah. So let's continue to talk about these kind of like a hierarchy of based upon the popularity levels of the fashion models. So we know that some fashion companies, right, are starting to create digital replicas of real models, especially more targeted at celebrity and top models. So what is your opinion on that? What is your view on that?

00:14:49:18 - 00:15:20:01
Yiran Guo
Yeah, I actually think the digital replicas you mentioned, that could actually be a real opportunity for the models specifically around the IP rise and the ongoing compensation, because if the model's likeness is being used to build an avatar, they should be earning royalties every time that avatar is used commercially, like that is a face, your image, and you should get paid for it.

00:15:20:03 - 00:15:47:00
Yiran Guo
I think the challenge is that the legal frameworks just haven't caught up yet, because right now is kind of the Wild West, right? And models could easily have their likeness exploited without fair compensation. But if I feel like, if they– In the future, there are right protections, it could actually become a solid revenue stream.

00:15:47:01 - 00:15:59:05
Jie Ren
Great. Do you think that is equally distributed among all models, or is it more towards the top models? The creation of the digital replicas?

00:15:59:07 - 00:16:34:21
Yiran Guo
Yeah, I feel like that's also towards the more like super or famous models. That– because if you create AI avatar or a digital replica, you expect it to have a lot of– make a lot of money for you and have a lot of influence. So you, I feel like you are, if I'm the seller, I'm going to tend to hire a famous model for that, but maybe they're more expensive.

00:16:34:21 - 00:16:49:02
Yiran Guo
So maybe according to the prices and the cost. I think that the other models can also have some opportunities.

00:16:49:04 - 00:17:05:01
Jie Ren
Yeah, I agree, I feel like maybe that could be some companies that are not so resourceful, and then they couldn't work around the supermodel’s schedule. So they are using the digital replicas, right? Instead of booking this particular model. Right?

00:17:05:05 - 00:17:07:00
Yiran Guo
Yeah. That's right.

00:17:07:02 - 00:17:37:09
Jie Ren
Okay. So maybe let's switch to the other side of the story. The consumer side. All right. So, given this changing dynamic in terms of the use of AI affecting the fashion industry and also the fashion modeling industry, in your opinion, how– So, what is the consumer's reaction to the different types of models, AI-generated model versus the real model?

00:17:37:10 - 00:17:43:19
Jie Ren
Do they see them equally, or do they feel like they are different?

00:17:43:21 - 00:18:26:20
Yiran Guo
I think the relatability is the keyword here because AI models, they can make any outfit look absolutely perfect. And that's the problem because consumers, they know deeply down that what they are seeing might not reflect how the clothes would actually look on a real person. So there would be a disconnect.[Jie Ren: Yeah.] But with human models, even with all the editing and the idealizations, there's still a sense of authenticity, like a real body, [Jie Ren: Good point.] real skin, and real movement.

00:18:26:22 - 00:18:59:16
Yiran Guo
Yeah. So I think that makes it easier for people to imagine themselves in the outfit. So the consumers will feel related and feel like the image is real. But for like for the AI models, if I'm the consumer, I will feel like the image is too fabricated and also out of reach. So it may be harder for consumers to trust it, and make it harder for them to actually want to buy.

00:18:59:18 - 00:19:12:12
Yiran Guo
And also anything that the brand doesn't want to invest money into, into this very basic things, and they are not trusting the brand.

00:19:12:14 - 00:19:37:21
Jie Ren
Yeah, I agree with you. These two points that you mentioned. Maybe there is a— maybe there is another point, which is it could— the use of AI versus not could very much reflect on the brand of the company. Right? So, in terms of which market segment they are targeting. Right? So, we could look back to the conversation that we just had for this kind of higher-end market.

00:19:37:22 - 00:20:02:16
Jie Ren
Maybe there are more real models, right, being used. And then for the general market, maybe there are less right? Given the trend of the use of AI. And then consumers don't want to be categorized, saying that, “You are thinking that I cannot afford a luxury good. That's why you are using these AI models, right? Rather than the real model to advertise your brand.”

00:20:02:17 - 00:20:32:09
Jie Ren
Right? So it could backfire. But again, as the AI models are advancing, right, and maybe to be more inclusive of different body shapes, and then not be so perfect in terms of the facial structure, facial item, whatever. Right. So then consumers could feel more relatable to that. And then the products could be more authentic. And then also the companies could also, you know, being received— could be received as having this authentic motivation.

00:20:32:10 - 00:20:52:11
Jie Ren
Right? Okay. So I have another question related to the use of AI. So, in your opinion, because you have been in the field for many years. So based upon your observation, and also your thinking, how do you see the fashion industry evolving in the age of AI?

00:20:52:13 - 00:20:58:16
Yiran Guo
Oh, evolving, so I think,

00:20:58:18 - 00:21:34:20
Yiran Guo
yeah, I think just like you said, the industry is going to change a lot. And the models who are most at risk are those who are doing the commercial work because I feel like commercial work is the easiest to be replaced by AI, and that, and so that kind of work will be smaller, and for that, there will be a hierarchy, like the supermodels and the famous models, they will have more power and more influence.

00:21:34:20 - 00:21:57:19
Yiran Guo
So they won't be easily replaced by AI. And the middle tier is getting squeezed the most, because the working models without a strong personal brand will struggle. And also, on the other hand, those who have built genuine influence at the top will continue to do well.

00:21:57:21 - 00:22:26:15
Jie Ren
Yeah, I feel like the hierarchy, right, in the fashion modeling industry could be amplified by the use of AI, right? But yeah, as you mentioned, right. Hopefully, more companies, regardless of the types, regardless of the size, could be using the digital replicas of all models more and more in the future, with good regulations in place to protect all models, not just the top models.

00:22:26:16 - 00:23:00:08
Jie Ren
Right? [Yiran Guo: That’s right.] Okay, so have more- Nice. So I have a final question for you, Yiran. I know that you are successful in navigating both worlds, right? Technology and also fashion. So very much like thinking and doing outside the box. So any suggestions to students who also want to be multidimensional, meaning not just sticking to like one professional world, they could be, you know, do the hopping across different professional industries.

00:23:00:10 - 00:23:45:04
Yiran Guo
Okay. Thank you for that. Yeah, actually, I cannot say I'm successful in both fields because there are, of course, more successful people in those two fields. And a lot of that, a lot of people are trying to— because they are very popular. So a lot of very talented people are trying to go into those fields. But there's also— there's indeed one thing that I want to give to other people that– I think the biggest thing I'd say is that just to be brave enough to try and never stop letting other people's timelines run your life.

00:23:45:06 - 00:24:00:11
Yiran Guo
I remember that when I was 15, someone just suggested I try modeling, and my mom was like, “Oh, it's already too late” because most girls start at 14. And when I was 20-

00:24:00:12 - 00:24:08:11
Jie Ren
I know that I was facing the competition from teenagers when I was doing modeling in my early 20s.

00:24:08:13 - 00:24:16:07
Yiran Guo
Yeah, yeah. The modeling industry is just so early, like the career is done so early, and so many young girls.

00:24:16:09 - 00:24:16:19
Jie Ren
Yeah.

00:24:16:20 - 00:24:40:01
Yiran Guo
And when I was 20, I brought up that again, and people were like, “Oh, you should have started at 16. It's too late.” But honestly, those deadlines are actually pretty arbitrary because I'm not aiming to be a Victoria’s Secret Angel or be a supermodel.

00:24:40:03 - 00:24:44:12
Jie Ren
Never know. Maybe in the future.

00:24:44:14 - 00:25:26:07
Yiran Guo
Thank you for that. Yeah. So I feel like those deadlines actually are not applied to me because I'm not– maybe I cannot make it as my own, like [inaudible] or source of income, but I feel like I can still try it, and that will just lead me to another path that I might not have imagined before. So I feel like you really have nothing to lose by just trying, because the worst case is that you come away with a good memory and you didn't do it successfully.

00:25:26:08 - 00:25:57:02
Yiran Guo
But the best case is that you discover something that you are genuinely passionate about. And I also push back on this idea that you have to pick one identity, because I feel like the society likes to tell you that, “stay in your lane,” be an engineer, or be a model. But why? Because nobody actually makes that rule. So I'm a software engineer, and I'm a model.

00:25:57:08 - 00:26:10:17
Yiran Guo
Those two things don't cancel each other out. I feel like, if anything, they just make me more interesting. So if something comes to you, just go for it.

00:26:10:19 - 00:26:38:09
Jie Ren
Okay. I'm applauding what you just said 100%. Because, as human beings, we are not just one-dimensional. We have potential out of so many different dimensions. Right? Waiting for you to explore. 100%. Don't just follow the societal expectation to say you have only one identity to follow through. And then you- you may have, like other right dimensions of talents, waiting for you to explore.

00:26:38:11 - 00:26:45:16
Jie Ren
Totally true. I'm very, very happy that you are here with us today, Yiran. I truly learned a lot from you.

00:26:45:19 - 00:26:48:06
Yiran Guo
Thank you. I also learned a lot from you.